Rout Question

[Phil_Draper]

Apologies for the poor quality image, I struggled to find a file type that GS liked.

So the question is how would you handle this situation? It is the Rout Phase No Quarter has not been declared.

 

[Eagle4ty]

J8 should select H8 (though he could select H9 as well) as his initial destination, using 3 MF to rout to J8 where he now redirects because of the NOW KEU in G9. He has must declare H6 as his final destination even though he will not have enough MF to make it to H6 this RtPh routing through I8 & I7 to avoid interdiction .

 

[zgrose]

So the question is how would you handle this situation?

As in, how would one buy the most time to delay the inevitable FTR but draw 2 US squads off the attack? Select H8, Low Crawl to I9. Actually, I'm not sure that's legal.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I think it surrenders, as odd as that may appear. A20.21 says
"Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible unconcealed Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead ..."
The broken unit in J8 is ADJACENT to KGOaeI/C, so the first part is met. It is not unable to rout away, but its available rout paths are such that the unit to surrender.

The unit must have H9 or H8 as its destination (assuming there are no other KEU that would make those hexes illegal, or ignorable).

Assume you pick H9 as its destination. It can Low Crawl to I9, or it can rout I9 to H9, where it discovers the 666s in G9 and G10. It can't rout back to I9 or I10 as they're moving closer to K9, nor can it rout to H8 or H10. It would be eliminated for Failure to Rout unless it Low Crawls.

Assume you pick H8 as its destination. Now it can Low Crawl to I8 or I9, or it can rout through one of them into H8, where it discovers the 666 in G9. Now you must chose a new destination, which can be G7 or H6. It can't continue into H9, nor I8 or I9 because they're moving closer to K9. To get to either G7 or H6, it has to rout through H7, where it would be Interdicted. If you pick H8 as its destination it will be subject to Interdiction or have to resort to Low Crawl.

Because the unit can only rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl, it will surrender to K9.

 

[Phil_Draper]

J8 should select H8 (though he could select H9 as well) as his initial destination, using 3 MF to rout to J8 where he now redirects because of the NOW KEU in G9. He has must declare H6 as his final destination even though he will not have enough MF to make it to H6 this RtPh routing through I8 & I7 to avoid interdiction .

I8 is illegal, it is closer to K9 which the routing unit remembers from its time in J8.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I think that it can low crawl into I8 or I9. It does not have to surrender to the K9 squad because it can reach its initial rout destination without interdiction. There is a Q&A that has not been posted here yet and that has recently appeared on Jim Bishop’s blog which clarifies that only the initial rout destination is considered for determining whether a brokie has to surrender at the start of its rout phase. It could also rout to H8 or H9 but would then have to surrender for the reasons already stated.

"Q&A: A20.21 When determining whether a broken unit would surrender to an ADJACENT unit, is the entire rout path examined for Interdiction or simply the first hex away from the enemy unit to which it is ADJACENT? That is, the first hex may be non-Open Ground but the second or third hex on the path to the target woods/building is Open Ground and therefore the unit would be Interdicted at that point during the rout.
A. The entire rout path."

Question:What does "entire rout path" refer to in the Q&A cited?

A:The entire initial rout path. ....Perry MMP

 

[EagleIV]

Your best choice is to LC to either I8 or I9. If you rout all the way to H8 you will surrender since at that point your only rout path (to H8) is subject to interdiction in H7. You have similar issues with routing to H9.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I think that it can low crawl into I8 or I9. It does not have to surrender to the K9 squad because it can reach its initial rout destination without interdiction.

But the rule doesn't say "if it can reach its initial destination", it just says "rout". The problem with Perry's "initial rout path" is that we don't know if Perry was answering as if the unit safely reached a building/woods Location, then the player chose to continue routing into another building/woods Location. E.g., in the A10.5 example, place another German unit in O3. The Russian unit routs to L3 then M4, where if is safe, but the player decides to continue to N3, where it discovers O3 and is eliminated for FTR. The initial rout path to M4 was OK and that could be what Perry was considering, and thus the Russian unit wouldn't surrender.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Your best choice is to LC...

If the unit has to Low Crawl to avoid Interdiction, then it would surrender instead, A20.21.

 

[EagleIV]

The unit doesn't have to LC to avoid interdiction when routing to its rout target (either H8 or H9) as it uses LC to go to I8 or I9. Since during it's rout it never sees the units in G9/G10 it never has to pick another rout target. H6 is never a rout target in this situation.

Of course ending the RtPh in the road isn't great, but it is (usually) better than becoming a prisoner.

 

[Doug Leslie]

But the rule doesn't say "if it can reach its initial destination", it just says "rout". The problem with Perry's "initial rout path" is that we don't know if Perry was answering as if the unit safely reached a building/woods Location, then the player chose to continue routing into another building/woods Location. E.g., in the A10.5 example, place another German unit in O3. The Russian unit routs to L3 then M4, where if is safe, but the player decides to continue to N3, where it discovers O3 and is eliminated for FTR. The initial rout path to M4 was OK and that could be what Perry was considering, and thus the Russian unit wouldn't surrender.

I think that Perry would have seen the passage in the blog that gave rise to the question. Here it is.


"Example 6
16 April 2022 Update: I have received a response to a Q&A concerning this example. At issue is the meaning of the Q&A cited in footnote 11. In that Q&A, it mentions “whole rout path” without clarifying what that means. Perry has clarified it to mean the “whole INITIAL rout path”, e.g. the path to the initial target location. What this means in practical terms is how the unit ACTUALLY routs has little to no impact on whether it Surrenders or not. What matters is the INITIAL rout be free from Interdiction. I have updated this example to comply with this Q&A.29

Figure 6
It is the RtPh. The broken German unit must rout. BB5 or CC5 are the initial rout destination. Each Location is 5 MFs away and the 4-6-7 must choose between them. Since squad C is out of LOS, the red arrows represent viable rout paths free from Interdiction. WRT Surrendering, NOTHING else matters. The broken unit starts with a rout path IT thinks is legal and free from Interdiction. It doesn’t matter if it can’t legally reach that destination. It doesn’t matter that it is Interdicted on what ever its final rout path turns out to be. The broken unit starts routing with the assumption it can reach BB5/CC5 therefor it won’t Surrender.
Of course, once the broken unit arrives in DD6, it gains LOS to squad C and cannot rout towards a Known Enemy Unit. It must choose between GG6 and GG7 as each is 4MF away from DD6. The broken unit can ignore GG7 since it is equidistant to squad B. It cannot ignore GG6. Even though the broken squad is Interdicted by squad B in FF5/FF6, it is free to rout without Surrender."

 

[Tuomo]

BTW this is why I wrote the Rout Example that wound up in the rulebook. In these situations, I can say any damn thing I want and my opponent just looks at me and shrugs and says, "Well, you oughta know!"

 

[Eagle4ty]

I think it surrenders, as odd as that may appear. A20.21 says
"Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible unconcealed Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead ..."
The broken unit in J8 is ADJACENT to KGOaeI/C, so the first part is met. It is not unable to rout away, but its available rout paths are such that the unit to surrender.

The unit must have H9 or H8 as its destination (assuming there are no other KEU that would make those hexes illegal, or ignorable).

Assume you pick H9 as its destination. It can Low Crawl to I9, or it can rout I9 to H9, where it discovers the 666s in G9 and G10. It can't rout back to I9 or I10 as they're moving closer to K9, nor can it rout to H8 or H10. It would be eliminated for Failure to Rout unless it Low Crawls.

Assume you pick H8 as its destination. Now it can Low Crawl to I8 or I9, or it can rout through one of them into H8, where it discovers the 666 in G9. Now you must chose a new destination, which can be G7 or H6. It can't continue into H9, nor I8 or I9 because they're moving closer to K9. To get to either G7 or H6, it has to rout through H7, where it would be Interdicted. If you pick H8 as its destination it will be subject to Interdiction or have to resort to Low Crawl.

Because the unit can only rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl, it will surrender to K9.

Ah yes, totally missed the point he would again be getting closer to the unit in K9.

 

[Eagle4ty]

If the unit has to Low Crawl to avoid Interdiction, then it would surrender instead, A20.21.

He could LC to I8 as he's not using it to avoid interdiction, he just doesn't want to become ADJACENT to the unit in G9 by entering H8 (where he is not subject to interdiction but is ADJACENT). At least in I8 he has a chance of a really good Self Rally DR.

 

[Phil_Draper]

Thanks to all for the engagement so far. Jim Bishop's blog article on prisoners (which is a must read for all interested in ASL, as is his whole site) was the reason I asked the initial question.

The German unit has to select H8 or H9 as his initial rout target.

If he routs to H9 he will surrender when he gets there as NQ is not in effect. This agrees with the excellent and (almost, it appears) exhaustive rout example created by Tuomo. Second paragraph in the example, broken 447 in M2. Now the crux of this part of the question appears to be can the unit legally Low Crawl to I9 on its way to H9? It appears to me that it can as the Q&A referenced by Doug above refers only to examining the entire route path for interdiction, not if the final destination is legal, which the routing unit only discovers as it gets there. Thoughts?

Now, if it routs to H8 the same LC option exists in I8 and I9. However for the sake of this example the unit wants to reach H6 or die trying. Why? Well maybe its a CVP based scenario and he desperately wants to avoid capture. Low crawling to any of his adjacent options will most likely get him captured in the upcoming US turn as they surround him. Also a handy HIP 10-3 is waiting in H6.

So he decides against Low Crawl and on H8, and routs directly there. What happens at this point? It seems clear to me based on A20.21 but Perry's answer to Jim's Q&A has caused Jim to reach a different conclusion to mine. I would be interested in the great and the goods take on what happens when the broken unit reaches H8 before I go into my own thoughts versus Jim's take.

Cheers

Phil

 

[Doug Leslie]

Thanks to all for the engagement so far. Jim Bishop's blog article on prisoners (which is a must read for all interested in ASL, as is his whole site) was the reason I asked the initial question.

The German unit has to select H8 or H9 as his initial rout target.

If he routs to H9 he will surrender when he gets there as NQ is not in effect. This agrees with the excellent and (almost, it appears) exhaustive rout example created by Tuomo. Second paragraph in the example, broken 447 in M2. Now the crux of this part of the question appears to be can the unit legally Low Crawl to I9 on its way to H9? It appears to me that it can as the Q&A referenced by Doug above refers only to examining the entire route path for interdiction, not if the final destination is legal, which the routing unit only discovers as it gets there. Thoughts?

Now, if it routs to H8 the same LC option exists in I8 and I9. However for the sake of this example the unit wants to reach H6 or die trying. Why? Well maybe its a CVP based scenario and he desperately wants to avoid capture. Low crawling to any of his adjacent options will most likely get him captured in the upcoming US turn as they surround him. Also a handy HIP 10-3 is waiting in H6.

So he decides against Low Crawl and on H8, and routs directly there. What happens at this point? It seems clear to me based on A20.21 but Perry's answer to Jim's Q&A has caused Jim to reach a different conclusion to mine. I would be interested in the great and the goods take on what happens when the broken unit reaches H8 before I go into my own thoughts versus Jim's take.

Cheers

Phil

If it goes to H8, it will have to surrender to the unit in G9. Note the wording of A20.21, which makes it clear that a unit can be forced to surrender at any point during its RtPh if the necessary conditions are met.

20.21 RtPh: Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible unconcealed [errata included] Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead,...

 

[Phil_Draper]

If it goes to H8, it will have to surrender to the unit in G9. Note the wording of A20.21, which makes it clear that a unit can be forced to surrender at any point during its RtPh if the necessary conditions are met.

20.21 RtPh: Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible unconcealed [errata included] Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead,...

That is my interpretation. However you can see why, based upon Perry's answer to Jim's Q&A he has (I believe) reached a different conclusion. If you strictly interpret the statement:

"Q&A: A20.21 When determining whether a broken unit would surrender to an ADJACENT unit, is the entire rout path examined for Interdiction or simply the first hex away from the enemy unit to which it is ADJACENT? That is, the first hex may be non-Open Ground but the second or third hex on the path to the target woods/building is Open Ground and therefore the unit would be Interdicted at that point during the rout.
A. The entire rout path."

Question:What does "entire rout path" refer to in the Q&A cited?

A:The entire initial rout path. ....Perry MMP


you could assess that the initial rout path in this example as I9, H8. That is the entire initial rout path and is free from interdiction. The fact that the subsequent (or current?) rout path on to H6 is vulnerable to interdiction and the unit is adjacent to a KEU is irrelevant. In this interpretation the German broken unit continues to H6 through H7, where it is interdicted but it does not surrender. That is why Jim states in his example, which you quoted above; "WRT Surrendering, NOTHING else matters. The broken unit starts with a rout path IT thinks is legal and free from Interdiction. It doesn’t matter if it can’t legally reach that destination. It doesn’t matter that it is Interdicted on what ever its final rout path turns out to be." So if we strictly interpret the Q&A as Jim has done, and I cant see another way of reading it then we have, as you point out a contradiction with A20.21.

Now I do wonder if the intent of Perry's answer was actually to say that the entirety of the currently active rout path was assessed when determining surrender due to interdiction at the point that the path becomes active (either initially or at the point it changes). That would make more sense and if reassessed when a rout path change was enforced during the units routs would no longer be in contention with A20.21. However, that is not what his response to Jim's query on the Q&A says, it explicitly says: A:The entire initial rout path. ....Perry MMP.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I don’t see a contradiction. I think that the process for a broken unit forced to rout due to being ADJACENT to an enemy unit is as follows:

1. Determine the nearest legal rout destinations
2 Determine whether it is possible to reach any of these destinations without being subject to interdiction or forced to low crawl. Potential interdictors include unconcealed units that are not known to the broken unit at the start of its rout phase. If no such rout path exists, the broken unit surrenders. If there is a legal rout path to one or more of the potential destinations that is not subject to interdiction, the broken unit can go to any of the potential destinations even if it incurs interdiction in the process.
3. Having determined its destination, the broken unit either low crawls or routs towards it. If, during the rout or after arrival at the rout destination, a previously unknown enemy unit makes it illegal to continue its rout, or to remain there after arrival, a new rout destination has to be chosen and the same process is followed as before, except that low crawl is no longer an option.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A:The entire initial rout path. ....Perry MMP.

I think the actual answer should be "The entire "current" rout path" - that was what the Q&A was about.

...and "current" = "the path the current rout target".

 

[Mister T]

I think the actual answer should be "The entire "current" rout path" - that was what the Q&A was about.

...and "current" = "the path the current rout target".

Whichever wording you agree with Perry, please put it in the Q&A file as it is a substantive change compared to the initial Q&A.