XIX Century Database

[Hariman]

Well, we could do a 1720(to avoid pikemen)-1900 set of units for Europe, and maybe move earlier if feasible in another exe. Battlefields (an upcoming game by Matrixgames) would be much easier to mod for that purposse anyway.

 

[Chuck?]

Well, we could do a 1720(to avoid pikemen)-1900 set of units for Europe, and maybe move earlier if feasible in another exe. Battlefields (an upcoming game by Matrixgames) would be much easier to mod for that purposse anyway.

I think a medieval ages exe would be possible. It just wouldn't work well with the later period. I don't know much about the Battlefields, is there a demo?

 

[Hariman]

No, it is still in development, it is a 1 km/hex scale WW2 wargame, WEGO play system. Instead of using an equipment data base, you directly assign values to the units, everything from AT attack and defence to artillery ranges, and even the speed of movement in km/h

So, should we start discussing values for the 1720-1900 period units?

 

[Chuck?]

No, it is still in development, it is a 1 km/hex scale WW2 wargame, WEGO play system. Instead of using an equipment data base, you directly assign values to the units, everything from AT attack and defence to artillery ranges, and even the speed of movement in km/h

So, should we start discussing values for the 1720-1900 period units?

Well I'd like to see a lot more ideas posted but you can start assigning values if you want. This will give us something to work with anyway. There should be a lot of different artillery pieces listed, the differences will be important in these types of scenarios.

Also what about horses? Where there different quality of work horses back then? In TOAW we have several different types of trucks so maybe there are different types of horses too.

 

[Hariman]

I will start with the early units, as artillery is a lot more generic, it will be in the second half of the XIX century when things will go more complicated
So, the parameters will be AP strength, Defense strength, AT strength (anti cavalry) and armour strength (cavalry defense) right?

 

[Chuck?]

So, the parameters will be AP strength, Defense strength, AT strength (anti cavalry) and armour strength (cavalry defense) right?

Yeah, work with that.

 

[Hariman]

I have reworked the list for the early period up to Napoleonic times
1720-1800 UNITS


1) CAVALRY
a) Lancers (Uhlans Cossacks…) Low AT (Anti Horse) values, high AP values
b) Light Cavalry (Hussars, Dragoons…) medium AT, medium AP
c) Heavy Cavalry (Cuirassiers…) high AT, medium AP. Slower movement than the rest of cavalry, and no scout capabilities.
d) Early Dragoons until mid XVIII century they were used as mounted infantry, using carbines and dismounting to fight, but afterwards they were used as normal cavalry


2) INFANTRY
I don´t think that the distinctions among the several types of line and light infantry would be useful at this scale, so I would use only 3 Infantry type.

a) Flintlock musket: Low AT, medium AP
b) Flintlock musket (Infantry+ regimental guns)
c) Flintlock musket Militia, useful to separate them for replacement purposses


3) ARTILLERY
Should be allowed to move only through roads and open terrain
Pre-Griveaubal
a) Field Guns
b) Siege guns
Griveaubal
a) Light artillery (4 to 6pdrs)
b) Medium artillery (8 & 9pdrs)
c) Heavy artillery (12pdrs)
d) Horse artillery
e) Siege artillery.

I will send you my values as soon as I have them worked out as preliminary base

 

[Hariman]

On horses, I think we should add a supply wagon unit (slow, moving badly out of roads and use it to build supply train units that move slowly but are valuable enough to keep close to the troops to provide aditional supply, that would be important to add a key factor in those wars, in fact is something I missed in your ACW scenario

 

[Chuck?]

On horses, I think we should add a supply wagon unit (slow, moving badly out of roads and use it to build supply train units that move slowly but are valuable enough to keep close to the troops to provide aditional supply, that would be important to add a key factor in those wars, in fact is something I missed in your ACW scenario

There are supply units in ACW. They don't appear to later in the scenario so you might of missed them.

Oh, another thing. We should include the types of ships they had in the period too.

 

[Hariman]

Do you think so? Naval warfare is so poorly represented in TOAW... I don´t know if that would be worth the effort

 

[Chuck?]

Do you think so? Naval warfare is so poorly represented in TOAW... I don´t know if that would be worth the effort

I don't want to use them but I'm sure others will.

 

[a white rabbit]

..before you do anything, you had better decide your ground scale (s); if you use a basic 1hex =50m then you'l be about right..

..all units use ranged fire but you will need to have two examples of all troop types, to get proper close-range volley fire eg artillery cannister fire can only be done by having some artillery with short range (2 hexes) but v high AP/AT values, with a standard gun with LR to give the long ranged fire..,

..i've found that a LR musket (brown bess type)(2 hex range) should have an AP around 5 to get near to the correct kill rates, the close range musket needs to be around 15, i'm still working on the artillery but a cannister Napoleon needs to be in the 30s AP/AT (at least)..

..rapid fire weapons (breech loaders) already have a box to tick but their kill rate needs working out ( sorry, it's so bloody boring shooting at targets)

.. cav : you need to have a normal and recon capable squads for all cav types..and all cav should use motorised (fast or norml)/roadbound options..

..you need mtd, wagon ,and foot HQs.. mtd ,wagon, and ft supply squads..,all wagons and artillery should use slow mtrsd/ road-bound..,

..and when designing the scen all units should be divided in the editor..,

..targets ..NB make them act def, otherwise they keep running away during testing

..Chuck, do you want the exe that i've already started ?..i'm more than happy to work with you on it... :devious: ..of course i hope you'l be willing to help with some of the leg-work for toaw-ancients ..,

..Richard

 

[a white rabbit]

..forget sailing ships, no way they can be done, ironclads are fun tho, each one has to hand built

 

[Hariman]

I have worked on details for the infantry units, here is the list
2) INFANTRY

a) Heavy Flintlock Musket, (Infantry+ regimental guns) Most major powers in Europe (except France) adopted that infantry, regimental guns (2-3pdrs) added firepower, but they embarrassed units maneuvering.
b) Flintlock Musket, French doctrine emphasized speed of manouver and attack with the bayonet over firepower, making no use of Infantry guns. Late in the 18th century Russia adopted that doctrine under Suvarov, and Austria did the same after the battle of Austerlitz
c) Territorial Militia (Flintlock Musket) (Prussian Landwher, Austrian Grenz, Russian Opolchenie…) It was a semipermanent force designed to be a pool of new recruits for the regular army, but in wartimes Territorial Militia units were frequently used in the front line together with regular units
d) Local Militia. (Flintlock Musket) Those were troops raised locally, either urban militias or rural semifeudal forces under local aristocracy. They were never used out their native territories
e) Percussion Musket (c. 1830), flintlock muskets had around 20-25% of misfires, percussion systems were much more reliable
f) Rifled Musket (c 1850) although slower to reload than smooth bore muskets, they were much more accurate at long range
g) Early Rifle (breach loading, early bolt action) ( Prussian Dreyse, British Martini-Henry, US Springfield…) They allowed soldiers to reload them quicker than muzzle loading weapons, but also while lying down, providing firing positions from cover at all times.
h) Repetition Rifle (US Spencer and Colt Revolving) They allowed soldiers to fire several times without reloading, however they were unreliable and have a rather short range
i) Rifle (bolt action) (British Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield, German Mauser, French Chassepot and Lebel) They were more robust and reliable, and have more hitting power and accuracy than earlier rifles

 

[Chuck?]

Heavy Flintlock Musket, (Infantry+ regimental guns) Most major powers in Europe (except France) adopted that infantry, regimental guns (2-3pdrs) added firepower, but they embarrassed units maneuvering.

b) Flintlock Musket, French doctrine emphasized speed of manouver and attack with the bayonet over firepower, making no use of Infantry guns. Late in the 18th century Russia adopted that doctrine under Suvarov, and Austria did the same after the battle of Austerlitz

OK, there can be both a Flintlock Company and Heavy Flintlock Company.

Territorial Militia (Flintlock Musket) (Prussian Landwher, Austrian Grenz, Russian Opolchenie…) It was a semipermanent force designed to be a pool of new recruits for the regular army, but in wartimes Territorial Militia units were frequently used in the front line together with regular units
d) Local Militia. (Flintlock Musket) Those were troops raised locally, either urban militias or rural semifeudal forces under local aristocracy. They were never used out their native territories

These seem like the same thing. Couldn't they be combined since they have the same weapons? Unit proficiency can handle any differences in quality.

 

[Chuck?]

..forget sailing ships, no way they can be done, ironclads are fun tho, each one has to hand built

It doesn't matter. I've seen some TOAW scenarios that have sailing ships. Otherwise there will be destroyers and crusiers in these scenarios.

 

[Hariman]

There is a big difference, Local Militia was never employed out of their native territories, and in fact it was very poorly equipped, I wrote flintlock muskets, but could be everything, including pikes. However could be useful in some scenarios for garrison duties, as they in fact garrisoned most cities and non vital fortresses
OTH Territorial Milita was a sort of Reserve Army, If you want to simplify things better merge them with the regular flintlock or heavy flintlock Musket units giving them lower proficiency

 

[Chuck?]

There is a big difference, Local Militia was never employed out of their native territories, and in fact it was very poorly equipped, I wrote flintlock muskets, but could be everything, including pikes. However could be useful in some scenarios for garrison duties, as they in fact garrisoned most cities and non vital fortresses
OTH Territorial Milita was a sort of Reserve Army, If you want to simplify things better merge them with the regular flintlock or heavy flintlock Musket units giving them lower proficiency

How about this:

Militia Company (Local)
Militia Company (Musket)
Reserve Company (Musket)

 

[Chuck?]

Marines Company
Sailors Company
Grenadier Company
Foreign Legion Company
Guards Company
Light Infantry Company
Highlander Compqany

Can you clarify what all these do? Is a Foreign Legion Company really needed? What type of weapons did they use?

 

[Hariman]

How about this:

Militia Company (Local)
Militia Company (Musket)
Reserve Company (Musket)

I don´t follow you, what would be the difference between Militia Company (Musket) and Reserve Company? besides, I thought you were for simplifying