Will tariffs effect the cost of ASL?

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Gunner Scott

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Hi-

So my question is, should I buy as much ASL stuff now? Will the new tariffs have a huge impact on our hobby? I know LFT does alot of their printing in Vietnam, so I'm sure LFT items will probably go up in the near future. Will we as the ASL hobby be effected or will we scrap by?
 

Robin Reeve

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I believe the situation is quite blurry and unstable, to be able to be very affirmative of how things will develop.
MMP proudly[sic] produces in the USA, so tariffs shouldn't affect USA customers - non-USA customers would depend on how their respective countries will answer the Usaian tariffs decision.
For products made elsewhere, the tariffs will apply to USA customers - but not the other World ones.
As Usaian workers' wages are considerably higher than the Chinese/Cambodian/etc. workers', perhaps relocating production in the USA would not be worth the effort?

I wonder if many game producers will try to compensate between Usaian and other World customers, evening the costs?

Now, games are not the expense priority for many of us: we first need to have enough money to eat, to pay wages and health costs (we are an ageing community) ...

Wait and see.
 

Gordon

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MMP announced previously that they were planning on printing in China going forward.
 

DVexile

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MMP announced previously that they were planning on printing in China going forward.
Yep, apparently had already done some tests or proofing, but maybe I was misunderstanding exactly what was meant.

But at 54% tariff it might not make any sense for them to do that transition anymore. There is a fair bit of effort in doing that I expect and not clear how far down that path MMP is.

ASL at least has the option to print in the US since it only uses chipboard counters. Many publishers don’t even have the choice as many components simply can’t be made in the US nor will the production ever be done in the US.
 

olli

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Only ASL stuff not made in the USA will be affected, so no worries about MMP, BFP etc, it will affect the rest of the world tho. The only thing will be for the American players a raised price in ASL made in Europe like LFT and Advancing Fire . Orders from outside the USA may be vastly curtailed tho with way overpriced things then the horrendous Shipping and taxing for us. I recently got something for my birthday from a US games store , they wanted almost $120 shipping for something 1/4 of that price, I had it sent to a friend over here, he then shipped it on , total shipping and a slightly longer shipping time was under $35.
 
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Gunner Scott

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I believe the situation is quite blurry and unstable, to be able to be very affirmative of how things will develop.
Role playing games are gonna get crushed, especially WoTC since they publish alot of stuff in China.

MMP proudly[sic] produces in the USA, so tariffs shouldn't affect USA customers - non-USA customers would depend on how their respective countries will answer the Usaian tariffs decision.
For products made elsewhere, the tariffs will apply to USA customers - but not the other World ones.
As Usaian workers' wages are considerably higher than the Chinese/Cambodian/etc. workers', perhaps relocating production in the USA would not be worth the effort?

I wonder if many game producers will try to compensate between Usaian and other World customers, evening the costs?

Now, games are not the expense priority for many of us: we first need to have enough money to eat, to pay wages and health costs (we are an ageing community) ...

Wait and see.
 

micalex

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Should be quite a huge impact on me. I will stop ordering ASL gifts from the US until things stabilize and consider purchasing online scenario more, guess March Madness and Bunker will be my new dishes on the table.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Counter tariffs (vs US only) + shipping will have me shifting even more of my purchases to Cambodia, France, Italy and Canada (no tariffs). I consider myself lucky to have seen a golden age in ASL. I have everything I need for several lifetimes.

USD might well drop, which is a counterpoint.

PS This will raise the secondary market prices for ASL modules outside of the US.
PPS If US retirement accounts continue to plunge with the markets, that will affect the available disposable income for further ASL purchases even in the US. Job losses do the same.
PPS All this might well be First World Problems. I spent a pretty buck buying food for my 3 day storage today.
PPS Domestic printing costs will also go up. Unless paper & pulp are from the States, they are from elsewhere and hence subjected to tariffs. As domestic businesses are sheltered from offshore competition, they will be tempted to raise their prices as well. Why wouldn’t they?
 
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JRKrejsa

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Very much 1st world problems…

Some thoughts;
Some of the tariffs will go away as negotiations continue. The ones I see sticking are the ones against China. As this is part of the on going superpower competition of the 21st century. MMP might be better served publishing in Cambodia like LFT. Or just continue to publish here.
 

PresterJohn

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It looks like MMP picked a bad year to triple up on their production schedule and make their products more available to the world. Sucks to be the small business owner.
 

wrongway149

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Blue Panther Games Made a post to their FB page regarding the issue- which I thought was a good relevant discussion:

""April 3 at 10:03 AM ·
Before we get started, this is an economic discussion, not a political one.
We have been asked by many folks recently what the effects of tariffs will be on game prices. Unlike most publishers, we started as game printers and continue to make the vast majority of the components that go into our games in the USA. That includes, boxes, maps, countersheets, rules, etc. So for us, the answer may be different than a publisher whose main print source is not located in the USA. Tariffs are likely to have a smaller impact on us than someone who prints their games in China or Poland or India. This is one of the advantages of print-on-demand and local sourcing.
That does not mean that costs on some things will not go up for us. For example, we use a specific brand of canvas for alot of our game boards. The canvas is made in a few places, including China. The price has been going up before any talk of tariffs and will probably jump again.
Almost all supply chains are global - this is less true of the stuff used in games like chipboard and paper, but there are still some chemicals used in the manufacture of paper and chipboard that are only made in a few places, and in most cases these places are outside the US. So we have spoken to suppliers that may be affected by tariffs and are in a waiting game - no price increases yet.
In some cases, increasing tariffs 100% may not even have much of an effect. Consider everyone's favorite - wood cubes - ubiquitous across multiple game genres. Can't find anyone who actually makes colored cubes in the US (we've tried). Used to pay companies that kept a large stock on hand and sold to consumer/wholesaler at reasonable prices. Once our game volumes got to a certain point, we decided to source cubes ourselves directly from China. For argument's sake, let's say someplace in the US will sell you a cube for 5 cents if you buy a few hundred of them. If you order 10000+ you'll pay more like .0.5 cents per cube in China (or usually less).
Say there's a 100% tariff today - so cubes are now 1 cent each .So even with shipping from China (which doubles the price again) bringing the total cost to 2 cents per cube, I'm saving 80-90% with no tariff and 50-60% even with 100% tariff. Makes no sense for a gamer to do this. Makes alot of sense for a game printer with 400+ titles (an ever increasing number of which use cubes) to do this even with the tariffs. If a game has 100 cubes, my my production cost goes up $1. We have absorbed larger cost increases before by getting more efficient (did you see what happened to wood during Covid?), buying better/faster equipment, etc to reduce the costs I can control within our own facility.
The current global supply system is the result of decades of policy and decisions. It's not going to be unravelled or completely reversed with short term tariffs. In some cases long term tariffs may not help much either, if there is no domestic industry in that sector to begin with. Some industries will have to rebuild from scratch. Is there a semiconductor factory in the US that can match the current capabilities of the factories in Taiwan? Probably not. Will there be one in the US, spurred on in part by tariffs? Probably yes. But how long will it be before that new US factory is actually making those high tech semiconductors in volume? 5-10 years.
Within certain parameters under our control, tariffs will not require us to raise prices. It is with some irony that I realize even with 100% tariffs, we could save some money by getting some work done outside the US - but it would require changes to our business model and cash flow. We'd be more dependent on "big hits" and "crowdfunding" and every game will have to sell better than the one before it. One of the things we consider a core value is to provide an opportunity for new publishers and designers to get their games out there with high quality components without having to invest their life savings or mortgage the house. If we were to source overseas, we would lose flexibility and the ability to help new companies at a reasonable price.
There are some things left to do on the operations side that can take our costs down and increase our flexibility and at the very least, keep our costs the same, possibly even take them down a bit. As volumes grow, we can get better pricing and we can buy more efficient equipment that makes what we had 5 years ago look like bow and arrow tech. There's opportunity and room for growth for us and our (current and potentially new) publisher clients in this market still.
So are tariffs good or bad? I would say if a US publisher imports their games, tariffs are at best a small negative impact on prices.
IF you're a publisher outside the US, they could be worse than that."
 

synicbast

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Counter tariffs (vs US only) + shipping will have me shifting even more of my purchases to Cambodia, France, Italy and Canada (no tariffs). I consider myself lucky to have seen a golden age in ASL. I have everything I need for several lifetimes.

PPS If US retirement accounts continue to plunge with the markets, that will affect the available disposable income for further ASL purchases even in the US. Job losses do the same.
It ain't just US 401Ks that are feeling the pinch. Australian Superannuation managed investments, NZ Kiwsaver Retirements and a whole lot of other managed funds worldwide are getting tanked on a level not seen since 2008. Although I've not seen any investment options locked down like the Bricks and Mortar funds were in 2008.
 

PNMarkW2

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I read another publishers post on the topic and their view included a comment about those who print in the US, you can't guarantee they won't also be hit tariffs depending on where the paper and ink come from. They also had a pretty dim view of US printing options saying most were at least a quarter century behind and now had less incentive to innovate or improve because now they're shielded from competition.
 

Vinnie

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Alan Findlay said that the de minimus exemption was still applying so he was not looking at paying tariffs. I suspect people like LFT will fall into this category as well. You might be looking at buying direct rather than through a reseller as a single copy is unlikely to get tariffed but a consignment might.
 

Robin Reeve

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Alan Findlay said that the de minimus exemption was still applying so he was not looking at paying tariffs. I suspect people like LFT will fall into this category as well. You might be looking at buying direct rather than through a reseller as a single copy is unlikely to get tariffed but a consignment might.
I read a differing opinion from a Polish producer that I crowdfunded a game from.
They are withholding delivery to the USA, until things become more clear.
 

footsteps

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Alan Findlay said that the de minimus exemption was still applying so he was not looking at paying tariffs. I suspect people like LFT will fall into this category as well. You might be looking at buying direct rather than through a reseller as a single copy is unlikely to get tariffed but a consignment might.
It's more that my US customers won't need to pay the tariffs on orders from me. All my stuff is made in Canada [EXC: MausMouse was sourced in China] (see how I slipped in ASLRB formatting!).

But, something that may be on the horizon, from an email from my shipping consolidator:
Also worth noting: the U.S. administration has published a new executive order indicating the intention to eliminate de minimis entirely once the appropriate systems are in place. This mirrors the language from last month's announcement. For now, Section 321 remains intact for non-China-origin goods, with no additional changes or timelines announced.
We live in interesting times. 🤓
 

Sparafucil3

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Anyone outside of the US thinking of buying a few more ASL modules either directly or via your local retailer before counter-tariffs hit?
Most astronomy gear is made abroad except for some very high-end (and thus very expensive) equipment. I am glad I got in when I did. A 25% - 45% increase in cost would have made me go elsewhere. -- jim
 

PresterJohn

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Anyone outside of the US thinking of buying a few more ASL modules either directly or via your local retailer before counter-tariffs hit?
I was thinking about how many people would have the opposite view, especially in the notionally USA-friendly countries that have come off so badly. I would expect an increasing number of people thinking that non-essential spending on products obviously sourced from the USA should be abandoned.
 
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