Street Fighting and Ambush

[Andy Bagley]

Just trying to clarify my understanding of the new rules for Street Fighting and Ambush DRMs. Previously, these two modifiers were not cumulative, but the revised wording of A11.8 means that they can be. So for example, if an AFV attempts to 'VBM freeze' concealed enemy unit(s) in woods or buildings by ending its MPh in bypass, then the defending units can CCRF and both modifiers would apply (thus making VBM freeze more risky, which I believe is the intention).
However, if Street Fighting is used against a vehicle in an ADJACENT open ground road location, then my understanding is that the Ambush DRM would not apply, because the defending unit will lose concealment when moving out to conduct the CCRF attack, hence no ambush. However, if the road hex contains any other terrain or modifier (e.g. a wreck) that allowed the defending unit to retain concealment, then the Ambush modifier would apply in addition to Street Fighting.
All these considerations also apply to an attacking infantry unit that advances vs a vehicle (or attacks in the same location) in the APh and CCPh - subject to PAATC requirements of course.
Have I got this right?

 

[Vinnie]

You will not fet ambush drm in CCRF as this is a CCPh modifier.
If you bypass sleaze then the -1 street fighting applies but if he stays there until the CCPh, there will be no ambush roll unless someone else advances in.
You can get ambush in street fighting but only if the hex is not otherwise open ground since, as you point out, the advancing unit will lose concealment.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Advanced Squad Leader • The Bishop Says: Journal 16 Changes to Street Fighting

The Bishop Says: Journal 16 Changes to Street Fighting. The new change to Street Fighting rules adds a subtle difference to VBM risk.

asl-players.net

This is my examination @Andy Bagley . I hope you find it helpful.

 

[Andy Bagley]

Advanced Squad Leader • The Bishop Says: Journal 16 Changes to Street Fighting

The Bishop Says: Journal 16 Changes to Street Fighting. The new change to Street Fighting rules adds a subtle difference to VBM risk.

asl-players.net

This is my examination @Andy Bagley . I hope you find it helpful.

Thanks Jim, this is very interesting and useful analysis. In your example though, the squad is unconcealed; what would happen if it was concealed when the AFV entered in VBM? Under the old rules it would automatically lose concealment, so no question of ambush. But now it has to take a PAATC and if it passes, remains concealed. So if it succeeds, surely it can then choose to use CCRF, and would get a -1 DRM for Ambush as well as the -1 SF DRM, based on the revised wording of A11.8? This is also supported by the EXC in D7.21 ("Ambush is NA unless using Street Fighting"), which indicates that both ambush and SF can apply in CCRF.

 

[Andy Bagley]

You will not fet ambush drm in CCRF as this is a CCPh modifier.
If you bypass sleaze then the -1 street fighting applies but if he stays there until the CCPh, there will be no ambush roll unless someone else advances in.
You can get ambush in street fighting but only if the hex is not otherwise open ground since, as you point out, the advancing unit will lose concealment.

Thanks for this, but I don't think I agree. Ambush is certainly a CC modifier, but where in the rules does it say that it can only apply in the CCPh? A11.8 says "Reaction Fire is identical to Street Fighting CC procedures except that the vehicle may not attack back" - no mention of Ambush being NA. And the EXC in D7.21 says "Ambush is NA unless using Street Fighting", which indicates that if you use SF in CCRF then Ambush can also apply (if the unit was concealed and passed its PAATC for the vehicle ending its MPh in bypass).

 

[Sparafucil3]

Thanks Jim, this is very interesting and useful analysis. In your example though, the squad is unconcealed; what would happen if it was concealed when the AFV entered in VBM? Under the old rules it would automatically lose concealment, so no question of ambush. But now it has to take a PAATC and if it passes, remains concealed. So if it succeeds, surely it can then choose to use CCRF, and would get a -1 DRM for Ambush as well as the -1 SF DRM, based on the revised wording of A11.8? This is also supported by the EXC in D7.21 ("Ambush is NA unless using Street Fighting"), which indicates that both ambush and SF can apply in CCRF.

If it retains concealment into CC, then there is an ambush possibility. If an ambush occurs, then both DRM would apply. If the unit simply attacks in CCRF before then, it is dropping Concealment to do so and there is no ambush DRM at that point.

 

[MajorDomo]

I have been playing ( since the new J16 rules) that a concealed squad in a building next to an enemy vehicle in an orchard road gets to roll for ambush in its ( the concealed squad's) CC phase to Street Fight.

Thus probably qualifying for a -2 to its CC roll.

Agreed?

 

[Sparafucil3]

I have been playing ( since the new J16 rules) that a concealed squad in a building next to an enemy vehicle in an orchard road gets to roll for ambush in its ( the concealed squad's) CC phase to Street Fight.

Thus probably qualifying for a -2 to its CC roll.

Agreed?

As long as it is advancing into some sort of Non-Open Ground hex (SMOKE, Trees, etc), then it is Concealed and creates an Ambush possibility.

 

[Vinnie]

Thanks for this, but I don't think I agree. Ambush is certainly a CC modifier, but where in the rules does it say that it can only apply in the CCPh? A11.8 says "Reaction Fire is identical to Street Fighting CC procedures except that the vehicle may not attack back" - no mention of Ambush being NA. And the EXC in D7.21 says "Ambush is NA unless using Street Fighting", which indicates that if you use SF in CCRF then Ambush can also apply (if the unit was concealed and passed its PAATC for the vehicle ending its MPh in bypass).

In order to gain ambush there has to be an Advance into the location. You simply cannot get an ambush outwith the CCPh as there is no option to roll for ambush at any other time.
" 11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur. "

 

[Sparafucil3]

In order to gain ambush there has to be an Advance into the location. You simply cannot get an ambush outwith the CCPh as there is no option to roll for ambush at any other time.
" 11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur. "

A Hidden unit that is placed on board per A11.19 can also Ambush.

 

[Andy Bagley]

In order to gain ambush there has to be an Advance into the location. You simply cannot get an ambush outwith the CCPh as there is no option to roll for ambush at any other time.
" 11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur. "

OK, I think you're probably right, but I'm still struggling with what appears to be very confusing wording in A11.8 and D7.21-211. For starters, it would help if the rules simply used the term "Streetfighting DRM" rather than "Streetfighting Ambush DRM". Second, that EXC in D7.21 would be much clearer if it read "(EXC: No Ambush is allowed other than the Streetfighting DRM)", which it is presumably intended to mean.
The wording from A11.4 doesn't by itself mean that (normal) Ambush cannot occur in any other circumstances, as A11.19 (and G.4) shows - although these do relate to the CCPh.
So I guess I agree with you, and this presumably means that (normal) Ambush is NEVER applicable to CCRF. Does it also mean that the only possible use of (normal) Ambush in combination with Streetfighting is when an infantry unit advances, in its own APh, onto an enemy vehicle in a qualifying road hex that is not otherwise open ground? And that a concealed infantry unit that begins its APh in a hex with a bypassing enemy vehicle can claim Streetfighting but not (normal) Ambush because it hasn't advanced? Seems odd.
PS: What if a friendly concealed leader advances into the hex already occupied by the concealed infantry unit with an enemy vehicle in VBM? Would the leader-influenced CC attack then be able to claim both (normal) Ambush and Streetfighting?

 

[Vinnie]

As long as there is an advance in, there can be ambush so be careful about sending a unit in to defend your bypassing AFV.
There can also be ambush if a hidden unit appears so be cautious around Japanese units on jungle roads.

 

[Andy Bagley]

OK, thanks for your help. I will continue VBM-freezing in carefully selected situations!

 

[Sparafucil3]

There can also be ambush if a hidden unit appears so be cautious around Japanese units on jungle roads.

HIP is a form of Concealment. Since we can now take a PAATC to remain concealed, I wonder if we can take a PAATC to say Hidden?

 

[Bjoernar]

HIP is a form of Concealment. Since we can now take a PAATC to remain concealed, I wonder if we can take a PAATC to say Hidden?

Just as much as we can from A12.41 I guess.

 

[Vinnie]

HIP is a form of Concealment. Since we can now take a PAATC to remain concealed, I wonder if we can take a PAATC to say Hidden?

I think you do.
If a vehicle enters your hex when hip you need to roll the paatc to stay hidden. If it ends its movement in bypass then again you'd need the paatc. Of course, this will reveal the fact there's someone there.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The A12.41 PAATC existed way before it was applied to bypassing vehicles.
Would a hidden unit remain hidden when it passed its PAATC when an unbroken vehicle entered its Location, or should it be placed on board concealed?

 

[PresterJohn]

I read it that there is no way to stay HIP when a vehicle enters the HIP location. The best you can hope for is to remain concealed by passing the PAATC, unless you have an exception to PAATC. Worst case is unconcealed and pinned as the vehicle decides if it should Overrun.

 

[Vinnie]

I read it that there is no way to stay HIP when a vehicle enters the HIP location. The best you can hope for is to remain concealed by passing the PAATC, unless you have an exception to PAATC. Worst case is unconcealed and pinned as the vehicle decides if it should Overrun.

I do not think so.
HIP is lost the same way concealment is lost. If a vehicle enters your location then you need to roll to retain concealment as per A12.41.
This is supported by Q&A:

A12.41 - An armed, "unbroken" AFV enters a Location containing one or more HIP units during that AFV's MPh. The HIP units do not voluntarily drop Concealment (HIP) and so are required to take a PAATC. If the HIP units pass this PAATC, are they placed on board under a "?" counter or do they remain HIP?
A. HIP. If they remain HIP, may the AFV conduct an Overrun as Area Fire on the HIP units, if otherwise able to do so?
A. Yes. If the HIP units are immune to PAATC, is there any requirement to inform the opposing player that there are HIP units in the Location his vehicle has entered?
A. No. {2}
source = unspecified

 

[PresterJohn]

After my adventures with the rules on Factory Rubble and mines, I'm arriving at the conclusion that some Q&A are not helping to play ASL.