Most debated/non-agreed upon rule/ASL situation at the moment/last year.

[Sparafucil3]

So continuing this example:

The 4-6-7 starts in R7 (either with Wall Advantage or IN the Building). It moves into S7.

A Snap Shot is not possible because while the 6-6-6 does have LOS to the R6-R7-S7 vertex, it does not have LOS to the R7-S7-S8 vertex because the R7 building is not an inherent LOS obstacle but blocking LOS to the latter vertex for that reason?

von Marwitz

Yes, as I understand it.

 

[von Marwitz]

Yes, as I understand it.

And one last thing:



Say there is NO Building in R7.

The 4-6-7 starts in R7 and moves to S7:
Snap Shot possible by the 6-6-6 because the Wall does not block LOS to any portion of its hex, Wall TEM would apply the the Snap Shot, though.

The 4-6-7 starts in S7 and moves to R7:
No Snap Shot possible, it is taken while the 4-6-7 is still in S7 and the R7 walls block the 6-6-6s LOS to S7.

Correct?

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The 4-6-7 starts in S7 and moves to R7:
No Snap Shot possible, it is taken while the 4-6-7 is still in S7 and the R7 walls block the 6-6-6s LOS to S7.

Correct?

The way the rule/Q&A is written/ruled that all you need is LOS to the hexside - doesn't matter which hex the target is considered to be in....

 

[von Marwitz]

The way the rule/Q&A is written/ruled that all you need is LOS to the hexside - doesn't matter which hex the target is considered to be in....

Thanks @klasmalmstrom and @Sparafucil3
I think (fingers crossed) I know how to handle the Snap Shot stuff now...

von Marwitz

 

[Robin Reeve]

I think (fingers crossed snapped) I know how to handle the Snap Shot stuff now...

Fixed for you.

 

[PresterJohn]

A vehicular MG is an MG. Other than a CA change, I see no restrictions on vehicular MGs making snap shots. What am I missing?

Jeff

Other than that a Vehicular MG is a separate entry from MG in the index. Vehicular MGs don't have rate, can't lay fire lanes, do spraying fire, attack an AFV etc etc. There are exceptions for a MA Vehicular MG.

 

[PresterJohn]

Thanks @klasmalmstrom and @Sparafucil3
I think (fingers crossed) I know how to handle the Snap Shot stuff now...

von Marwitz

It's been said a few times that the more esoteric examples will probably never be declared as a real attack in a gaming career. But the threat of a 4 FP attack with no modifiers is enough to make somebody reconsider crossing the open ground hexside between two buildings, and go another way.

But all of those esoteric attacks do arise as possibilities from the thread of logic that exists when the basic snap shot has all the other game rules added in.

In your last example the snap shot of 2 +2 is possible, but why do that when you can do 6 +2 and leave residual - hence the snap shot exists but is rarely used.

 

[JustJeff]

Other than that a Vehicular MG is a separate entry from MG in the index. Vehicular MGs don't have rate, can't lay fire lanes, do spraying fire, attack an AFV etc etc. There are exceptions for a MA Vehicular MG.

Can you give me a reference to where the rules prohibit vehicular MGs making snap shots?

Jeff

 

[PresterJohn]

You're not supposed to ask questions like that out loud. The COWTRA police will come for you.

 

[JustJeff]

You're not supposed to ask questions like that out loud. The COWTRA police will come for you.

8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot…

from the glossary - Unit: Any game piece or counter with its own MF/MP allotment and normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed. Infantry, Cavalry [but not horses], Dummy stacks, and vehicles (even if Immobilized) are all different types of units.

my position is COWTRA compliant. Unless I am missing an exception somewhere vehicular MGs may make snap shots.

Jeff

 

[PresterJohn]

You are not COWTRA compliant when you ask to see a rule that says what you are not allowed to do. In this case you asked to see a rule that says you are not allowed to use a Vehicular MG.

 

[JustJeff]

I gave you rules references that clearly show that the rules allow vehicular MGs to snap shot. COWTRA indeed.

Just happened to check my first edition Rulebook and curiously enough the last sentence of A8.15 reads as follows: Neither a vehicular MG which must change its CA, nor an ordnance weapon, nor Gun using IFE can make Snap Shots (see also B9.2 and C.5).

Vehicular MGs may Snap Shot.

Jeff

 

[von Marwitz]

Neither a vehicular MG which must change its CA, nor an ordnance weapon, nor Gun using IFE can make Snap Shots (see also B9.2 and C.5).

The current sentence reads (A8.15 penultimate before the EX):
"Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5)."

As long as the Vehicular MG does not need to change its CA for the attack, I agree with your assessment that it can make Snap Shots.

von Marwitz

 

[PresterJohn]

Can you give me a reference to where the rules prohibit vehicular MGs making snap shots?

Jeff

Here you are clearly asking to be provided with a rule to prohibit an action, rather than a rule to allow an action..

 

[PresterJohn]

The current sentence reads (A8.15 penultimate before the EX:
"Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5)."

As long as the Vehicular MG does not need to change its CA for the attack, I agree with your assessment that it can make Snap Shots.

von Marwitz

The problem is that the MG CA rule being referred to (9.21) is for SW i.e. MG counters. A Vehicular MG can not use A9.21 because it has no ROF.
I suppose players can agree to allow the Vehicular MG Snap Shot under First Ed rules, but it looks like it has been specifically removed under Second Ed rules.

I'm still going with my first impression that a MG and a Vehicular MG are two different things via the Index references.
I haven't found anything allowing a MG as Main Armament to use Snap Shot yet. I did see a reference allowing Spraying Fire though.

I suppose it is possible that there is a current rule allowing a Vehicular MG to use Snap Shot but I haven't seen it yet.

 

[von Marwitz]

The problem is that the MG CA rule being referred to (9.1) is for SW i.e. MG counters. A Vehicular MG can not use A9.1 because it has no ROF.
I suppose players can agree to allow the Vehicular MG Snap Shot under First Ed rules, but it looks like it has been specifically removed under Second Ed rules.

I'm still going with my first impression that a MG and a Vehicular MG are two different things via the Index references.
I haven't found anything allowing a MG as Main Armament to use Snap Shot yet. I did see a reference allowing Spraying Fire though.

I suppose it is possible that there is a current rule allowing a Vehicular MG to use Snap Shot but I haven't seen it yet.

A8.15 allows "any unit" to make Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attacks to claim a Snap Shot if its prerequisites are met. This is the rule that "allows", which means in principle, the answer is "yes".

"A8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS) [EXC: A Snap Shot cannot be taken at a unit while entering the firer's hex]."

Then we continue to look if under specific conditions this permission is revoked (i.e. disallowing) and we find these later in A8.15:

"Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5)."

So "any unit" making "MG Defensive First Fire attacks" (I don't see why this "any unit" would not include vehicles) MINUS those in which "a MG must change its CA" are permitted.

von Marwitz

 

[JustJeff]

Here you are clearly asking to be provided with a rule to prohibit an action, rather than a rule to allow an action..

Because it was you who was insisting that it was indeed prohibited, not me. Therefore, it is you who needs to prove it. The current rule as written clearly allows it. There is no basis to argue that MMP purposely removed Snap Shots for vehicular MGs.

Jeff

 

[PresterJohn]

A8.15 allows "any unit" to make Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attacks to claim a Snap Shot if its prerequisites are met. This is the rule that "allows", which means in principle, the answer is "yes".

"A8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS) [EXC: A Snap Shot cannot be taken at a unit while entering the firer's hex]."

Then we continue to look if under specific conditions this permission is revoked (i.e. disallowing) and we find these later in A8.15:

"Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5)."

So "any unit" making "MG Defensive First Fire attacks" (I don't see why this "any unit" would not include vehicles) MINUS those in which "a MG must change its CA" are permitted.

von Marwitz

You might be right, but if "MG" and "Vehicular MG" are two different things as they appear to be in the Index than Vehicular MG are not included in A8.15.

Also you have confirmed that the description "a vehicular MG" has been specifically removed from the Second Ed Snap Shot rules. Why remove this reference if Vehicular MG are in fact allowed to use Snap Shot? Also you are insisting that the rule for MGs with ROF (A9.21) apply to Vehicular MGs, which do not have ROF. Why not also refer to the Chap C/D rules on changing CA, if Vehicular MG are meant to be there?

Considering those details I am seeing nothing in there which allows Vehicular MG (assuming separate to MG as per the Index) to use Snap Shot.
Perhaps removing the First Ed comment from the Second Ed was a mistake, and perhaps not using the phrasing:
"Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG/Vehicular MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot"
was also a mistake.

I can see how mistakes happen and perhaps it was always intended in Second Edition that this use of Vehicular Mg was allowed, but it certainly isn't clearly the case.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Why remove this reference if Vehicular MG are in fact allowed to use Snap Shot?

Because it was redundant.

 

[PresterJohn]

Because it was you who was insisting that it was indeed prohibited, not me. Therefore, it is you who needs to prove it. The current rule as written clearly allows it. There is no basis to argue that MMP purposely removed Snap Shots for vehicular MGs.

Jeff

I clearly said there was no rule allowing it. I may have been wrong and there is a rule allowing it, but as I have explained above, it certainly doesn't seem obvious that this is the case in Second Ed.