Japanese SMG Squads!

[Hutch]

John, your latest picture is interesting. Having enough Type 100's for the picture but the one Japanese Conscript wearing the Chinese Helmet.

 

[von Marwitz]

Likely for propaganda purposes...

von Marwitz

Of course, but it's still yet another picture of multiple SMG at Japan's disposal.

von Marwitz

P.S.
I do not want to insinuate that the pictures you have presented were fake.
My objective was just to add a little fun to life.

 

[gorkowskij]

John, your latest picture is interesting. Having enough Type 100's for the picture but the one Japanese Conscript wearing the Chinese Helmet.

Some important details in that photo. Those SMG are not type 100s. They are Swiss Bergman, purchased and used by many nations in the 1920s/30s, including China and Japan. Japan started its Type 100 program after purchasing the Bergman became too difficult/costly. And, technically speaking, those are not Japanese conscripts, but rather "allied" soldiers from one of the puppet states in northern China that aligned with Japan. One would expect those troops to wear and use whatever they could find. So, it's no surprise that one of them acquired a German helmet that may have first be worn by a KMT solider. I found those same helmets in Afghanistan circa 2019!

 

[gorkowskij]

View attachment 30351



von Marwitz

P.S.
I do not want to insinuate that the pictures you have presented were fake.
My objective was just to add a little fun to life.

Sure, no worries. Combine that with a couple of quotes from military intel reports and you have a credible case for alien invasion.

 

[Gordon]

 

[Hutch]

No surprise that one of them acquired a German helmet that may have first be worn by a KMT solider. I found those same helmets in Afghanistan circa 2019!

From a website:
All told China ordered 220,000 German M35 helmets to equip its armed forces. In an era in where most of the armies of major world powers were still wearing WWI era steel helmets, China with its newly designed German manufactured helmet would stand out as a modern looking army. These new helmet without a doubt would have boosted the morale of the Chinese soldier who received them, as they were far superior to what other armies of the era were wearing including their enemies the Japanese.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think the only way new Japanese MMC types are likely to be offcial counters is if someone designs and submits to MMP:
a) an Action Pack around Japanese units where they could be warranted, or:
b) designs enough scenarios for a Journal under the same premise, or;
c) designs a HASL(-ish) product for them.

I personally don't see MMP pubishing such counters, merely because they could be used in future designs. Either way, unless someone pitches the idea to MMP, then it will most likely not happen.

 

[footsteps]

My objective was just to add a little fun to life.

Wait. What??? Is that allowed? Or do you have to give up your "German" card and move to... England?

 

[gorkowskij]

I think the only way new Japanese MMC types are likely to be offcial counters is if someone designs and submits to MMP:
a) an Action Pack around Japanese units where they could be warranted, or:
b) designs enough scenarios for a Journal under the same premise, or;
c) designs a HASL(-ish) product for them.

I personally don't see MMP pubishing such counters, merely because they could be used in future designs. Either way, unless someone pitches the idea to MMP, then it will most likely not happen.

Of course. I'll raise this with them, along with a few related scenarios, at Winter Offensive.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Of course. I'll raise this with them, along with a few related scenarios, at Winter Offensive.

Go for it....

 

[Chas]

BFP looked at this years ago. It does not warrant a counter.
SMG squads in purest form represent squads that are fully or mostly armed with SMGs (Russian 6-2-8/5-2-7).
The Japanese had nothing close to this. They were used here and there in small numbers, and not en masse in special squads.
If Japanese squads warrant 5 FP stats, then essentially so does every German non-early war rifle squad, as they would have had some SMGs.

 

[Psycho]

Wait. What??? Is that allowed? Or do you have to give up your "German" card and move to... England?

 

[PresterJohn]

Surely this is a TPP HASL thing?

 

[Andrew Rogers]

MMP and new counters: With Journal 14 and the Sparrow Force HASL, the Aussie designers had a opportunity to pitch MMP for the early 1942 scenarios with Japanese naval paratroopers to have 'new' Japanese counter(s) that would reflect possible SMG use and a morale of '8'. As indicated in the Journal articles, the evidence is not there to support SMG use (of the handful of pictures, none have SMGs), nor an '8' morale for the naval paratroopers (several reasons for this assessment) during this phase of the war.

There is a bibliography for the Journal and the key references covering this issue are:
Nila, G. & Rolfe, R. “Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces: Uniforms and equipment 1932-45”, Osprey Publishing
Rottman, G. & Takizawa, A. “Japanese Paratroop Forces of World War II”, Osprey Publications
Salecker, G. “Blossoming Silk Against the Rising Sun: U.S. and Japanese Paratroopers at War in the Pacific in World War II”, Stackpole Military History Series
Military Intelligence Division, "Japanese Parachute Troops", - Special Series No. 32, 1 July 1945

 

[Pitman]

Anybody who suggests a new squad type needs to put a dollar in the swear jar.

 

[william.stoppel]

I too am not a fan of more counters. But this matter is a minor transgression. About 12 squads and 6 half squads would do it to illustrate Japanese use of SMGs in NEI during 1942 and The Philippines during 1944. As has been noted, the same effect can be achieved with already existing counters, the Finnish 5-3-8 serves well. How many SMGs did the Finns have? Well, probably less than Japan and early on they used the same brand, Swiss Bergman.

Anyway, sooner or later, we're gonna get more counters whether we like it or not. I'm still sorting those Vichy French and love that Finnish sled thing.

Of course. I'll raise this with them, along with a few related scenarios, at Winter Offensive.

just make sure one of those scenarios is…DASL!!!

 

[gorkowskij]

Great discussion. Indeed, we do not have the data to prove that any Japanese squad ever had more than two SMGs, which was the standard allotment for a German rifle squad in 1944. And, six of the nine men in Soviet SMG squads carried an SMG (https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-rifle-co-1944) So, by the numbers, 5 firepower is a high hurdle to clear.

But the curious issue of more-than-expected Japanese automatic weapons fire and the known use of SMGs by some Japanese forces, especially those Army paratroopers who dropped on Palembang in Feb 42, and others on Okinawa in May 45 (Naval History Magazine. United States Naval Institute. pp. 46–48) leaves space for discussion/interpretation and even, dare I say it, “design for effect.”

None of that requires a new MMC. Indeed, one could just issue more LMG to Japanese forces in these cases.

Anyway, something was going on, as revealed in the following reporting. Notice how the tally of armament in section 17 refers to 300 "machine carbines" for a 670-man battalion! To be sure, the numbers could be off, but that’s a huge miss if they are speaking solely of LMGs.

Military Intelligence Service, Information Bulletin No. 16, May 20, 1942

​

Section V: PARACHUTE FORCES

13. GENERAL

In September 1941 the Japanese were believed to have had three battalions and two companies of parachute troops. In only one instance, at Palembang, Dutch Sumatra, have the Japanese used parachutists on a large scale.

14. ORGANIZATION

Each battalion consists of a headquarters staff and supply section (not air-borne) and three companies. The total strength of a battalion is about 670 men.​

15. QUALIFICATIONS AND PERSONNEL

All have to attend special courses in foreign languages and map reading. All officers are drawn from the air arm and must not be over 28, with the exception of the battalion commander, who may not be over 35. The battalion commander usually is a colonel. Enlisted men must not be over 25.

16. EQUIPMENT

Officers and enlisted men are provided with special clothing which includes fur-lined jackets, trousers, and a hood with goggles. Officers also carry an electric torch and a wallet (brief case ?) containing maps and writing material. Each enlisted man carries a barracks bag containing the following: Complete change of underwear; Spare pair of shoes; Rations for 3 days, including rice, canned fish, canned meat, and tea.

17. ARMAMENT

Each battalion is believed to include approximately the following:

Revolvers	_ _ _ _ _​	360​
6.5-mm. machine carbines (probably similar to submachine guns)	_ _ _ _ _​	300​
Hvy MG's	_ _ _ _ _​	42​
13-mm. AT rifles	_ _ _ _ _​	55​
Arisaka1 "cannon"	_ _ _ _ _​	9​

A subsequent section (X: Equipment, b. Machine Guns) of that same bulletin from 1942 added context by explaining that the new (to them) Japanese Type 96 Light Machine Gun may have been mistaken for a submachine gun in previous reporting.

“It has a sling, attached to the butt stock and to the gas-cylinder bracket, for the purpose of carrying the weight from the shoulder. This feature enables the gun to be fired from a position generally used in operating a submachine gun, and it is believed that the weapon may have been referred to erroneously as a "Tommy" gun in previous reports on Japanese warfare. "Tommy" guns are not believed to be part of Japanese organizational equipment. However, it is possible that a limited number, purchased from foreign powers (we know that happened), may have been scattered among advance units fighting in the jungles.”

That’s fascinating on several levels. There’s the obvious matter of conflating LMG and SMG, but also some more subtle questions.

Was the Japanese LMG versatile enough to perform SMG-like functions?

Given the quantity estimate of 300 units per battalion (almost one for every two men), did Allied intel comingle stats for LMG, SMG, or perhaps some other semi-automatic weapon?

Does this data indicate that early war paratroopers had an unusually large inventory of automatic weapons, whether they be LMG, SMG, or both?

 

[Hutch]

A boyhood age gone by:
Soldier firing a Model 96 or 99 from the hip.
Wounded soldier carrying a Type 100 SMG.

 

[gorkowskij]

A boyhood age gone by:
Soldier firing a Model 96 or 99 from the hip.
Wounded soldier carrying a Type 100 SMG.

Wow, more dynamic than the Airfix IJA that I had.

 

[Psycho]

A boyhood age gone by:
Soldier firing a Model 96 or 99 from the hip.
Wounded soldier carrying a Type 100 SMG.

Still have some of those along with many Germans, Americans, British & various other random layabouts.