Is History important?

HMSWarspite

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I dont either (cos I am an uber history geek of the first order), but I assumed most other people do. Mine stay as deployed at the start of the game. However it would be nice if they did something and the sane and gamey part of me didn't just keep muttering 'its just a target, it doesn't do anything' as they tag along behind the GF or whatever:)

Also, them doing something might indicate the application of thought to aircraft in the game :). I dont want carrier warfare or anything, but the prospect of early WW2 actions would be nice...
 

saddletank

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In my mind naval air power is best represented in wargames as an abstract, in much the same way Zeppelins and submarines and mines are already quite well represented in SES' games. As a post above in this thread suggested, a seaplane carrier could give a TF an extended area of visibility when the weather is clear and the sea calm. However the question needs to be asked "Exactly how useful were Engadine and the other seaplane carriers to Jellicoe and Beatty? What effect or usefulness did they have?" I suspect not much.
 

Bullethead

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Would it not be fair to suggest that submarines were something of an unknown quantity, even by 1914, many dismissed them as something of an irrelevance.
I get the impression that most naval personnel took submarines quite seriously by the start WW1, in something of a repitition of the torpedoboat scare a few decades before. There were those who didn't, of course, but more of them seem to have been in the Admiralty than the fleet. For example, IIRC it was the Admiratly that insisted on maintaining the "Live Bait Squadron" in the face of predictions of doom from the fleet. When that squadron lost 3 ACs in 1 day in September, even Admiralty opinion changed.

Indeed, the fleet commanders on both sides were, for most of the war, continually complaining that they had insufficient DDs to protect the fleet, let alone do anything else. This was the RN's main reason for opposing convoys so long and why the Germans never exploited Zeebrugge until they'd effectively mothballed the HSF, when it was too late. And then there were the countless panics due to bogus submarine "sightings" all through the war during operations.

By 1908, there were already large ocean going destroyers of 900 ton displacement in existence.
I would have thought that the increase in size was largely a result of a requirement for destroyers to accompany the large warships on forays overseas and counter enemy torpedo boats and coastal destroyers, rather than to provide an ASW screen.
Certainly that played a role in DD growth, but I think that was a later development, more a by-product of other things than a end in itself, at least initially.

When the TBDs were built, all destroyers and TBs were "coastal". The machinery of that day was simply too inefficient to give small ships any sort of range. The "high seas" type were big enough to get out of sight of land, cross the Channel, the Med, or the Sea of Japan, but they couldn't cross oceans. And they couldn't even go long distances along the coast without frequent refueling at sea, which wasn't possible in combat zones. So until that situation changed, DDs were incapable of accompanying the fleet in the sense meant in WW1 and later. As such, there was no reason to build them any bigger than they were already, especially because large size was still seen as a disadvantage in their primary role of night attacks.

By the time small machinery evolved to allow DDs to accompany the fleet (if sufficiently large and seaworthy), other things had happened. The earliest torpedoes had been BB weapons because fleets contained little else and their effective range and speed were on a par with BB guns and speed. But BB guns had soon left torpedoes far behind, which for a couple decades relegated them to night attacks by TBs, which in turn were countered by nets and anti-TB guns. Eventually, torpedoes achieved a range and speed to hit moving targets in a fleet action while staying out of reach of 3-12pdrs. But because guns still far out-ranged torpedoes, it was unlikely that BBs would fire them even though they still carried them. Thus, a niche was created for a true "sea-going torpedoboat", which the developments in machinery made it possible to fill.

When considering the anti torpedo boat weapons mounted on large warships, these only equate to 3pdr and 12 pdr guns (about the size of a WW2 anti tank gun) and main armament had difficulty in depressing sufficiently to fire at TB’s. The potential effectiveness of such guns needs to be considered when considering the short range of torpedoes.
In the era of the small anti-TB gun, torpedoes had a range of less than 1000m. Most WW2 tank shots were fired at ranges less than 1000m as well, and they certainly hit each other frequently enough, despite using sights no different than the anti-TB guns. And even the smallest TB was a rather larger target than a WW2 tank.
 

martin worsey

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I get the impression that most naval personnel took submarines quite seriously by the start WW1, in something of a repitition of the torpedoboat scare a few decades before. There were those who didn't, of course, but more of them seem to have been in the Admiralty than the fleet. For example, IIRC it was the Admiratly that insisted on maintaining the "Live Bait Squadron" in the face of predictions of doom from the fleet. When that squadron lost 3 ACs in 1 day in September, even Admiralty opinion changed..
The “live bait squadron” was equipped with ships that were in poor repair and were thus very slow. They were crewed by reservists who the rest of the fleet believed could not shoot straight. In many respects, the perceived threat was Battlecruisers not submarines.
A contributory factor for the loss of the second and third ships was that the stopped to pick up survivors; assumption being that the first ship had run into a mine. Attack by submarine was clearly not considered.
Accounts that I have read tend to suggest that complacency of the threat of submarines lead to the loss of the “live baits”


Certainly that played a role in DD growth, but I think that was a later development, more a by-product of other things than a end in itself, at least initially...
That the Tribals were also called “ocean going destroyers” would tend to suggest that this was the intention; as you suggest though, limitations in technology resulted in the intention not being realised


In the era of the small anti-TB gun, torpedoes had a range of less than 1000m. Most WW2 tank shots were fired at ranges less than 1000m as well, and they certainly hit each other frequently enough, despite using sights no different than the anti-TB guns. And even the smallest TB was a rather larger target than a WW2 tank.
I understand that hits on tanks in early WW2 tended not to occur when both vehicles were moving. Consider also that even when the target is hit, you need to cause it significant damage. A 12 pdr shell is comparatively small (not that I would want to stand in the way of one) and a destroyer comparatively large.
 

Mustang03

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I understand that hits on tanks in early WW2 tended not to occur when both vehicles were moving. Consider also that even when the target is hit, you need to cause it significant damage. A 12 pdr shell is comparatively small (not that I would want to stand in the way of one) and a destroyer comparatively large.
Tank hits in every war up until Iraq I in 1990-1991 were rare indeed when both vehicles were moving. US tanks did not have a stabilizer system until the 1970's and even then the main gun was only stabilized in relation to the hull. So as you moved the sights would come off the target very quickly. Hits on anything from a moving tank were largely a matter of luck, no matter how skilled the crew. Shooting while on the move was done for suppressive fire -- if at all. It was not until the M1 Abrams that fire on the move became a viable tactical option.
 

HMSWarspite

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Not completely true. The M4 (Sherman) had a form of stabiliser in elevation only in WW2. The Centurion Mk3 also had one not long post war. However the M4 (at least) was difficult to use effectively and allegedly a lot of crews left it turned off. In any event it only really helped when driving straight at the target over undulating (not bumpy) ground. Your point that most tank hits were from static is completely valid in the 60's and 50's. In the 70's and on, technology was such that well trained crews could hit on the move, and did. Just not as often as when static. The philosophy of most armies was thus 'either fire, or move'. Do both to the best of your ability. I.e. when firing , stop, and when moving dont waste time and effort firing. OTOH, I believe Warsaw pact did fire on the move, but I think this was more to suppress, and (given superior numbers) get a large volume of fire in to the target area. May also help crew morale?

The British Army used to practice fire on the move with the Chieftan in the 70's at least.

Having said all this, you have to be very careful comparing tanks with even the most cramped naval mount. A tank turret is small, claustrophobic, and busy. One (or max 2) guy to load/handle ammo, one to aim/fire and one to command/spot (assuming you aren't early WW2 Russian, French or some British where there are only 2 to do it all). All sat on top of eachother. A typical 12pdr or bigger had 2 or 3 times the crew, and whilst you might get wetter than your average tank, you dont cripple your elbow with an inadvised arm movement or bang your head every time the tank bounces. Also bearings and ranges change rather more slowly (at least in % terms - a tank might do '25kts' in a hurry, but you wont be engaging it at 2-4000m very often. 1000m, a rather more typical tank range until relatively recently, is rather close for a WW1 naval battle.)

Finally, whilst destroyers were big relative to a 12pdr, you only need to hit one in the right place. Several DDs at Jutland were crippled with the main steam feed pipe being severed by one shell, and there is little to stop even the smallest shell in a WW1 DD. The guns are about the only guaranteed object that is solid enough. And I dont fancy the splinters much:)
 

saddletank

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Glad to see this brought back on topic. Personally I see little comparison between naval warfare of the 1880s to 1910 and tank warfare in any era except that some people were trying to kill some other people with guns.
 

martin worsey

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I agree that tank warfare has little in common with naval warfare; the point was just a reference as to how comparatively small a 12pdr shell is. It is a common principle with gunnery that it becomes much harder to achieve a hit when the target is moving and harder still when the firer is moving; vertically as well as horizontally with naval gunnery.
As mentioned there are numerous examples from Jutland of few hits disabling destroyers (albeit largely by 4” and 6” guns which fire 2 and 8 times heavier shells than the 12pdr) but also plenty of examples of destroyers absorbing significant punishment with only superficial damage. Apparently a matter of luck as to where it is hit.
The point is that there was a general trend for increasing size of torpedo craft up to the Tribals which entered service in 1907. From 1907 – 1914, the size of torpedo craft largely stayed the same. Anti torpedo boat gunnery was increased from 12pdr to 4” in 1907 and then to 6” in 1914 (although contemporary evidence is not 100% clear that the 6” gun was introduced for this reason). This would suggest that contemporary wisdom was that the 12pdr was not that effective and that something larger was needed. Combat experience from the RJW would also tend to support this.
The converse argument however would be that larger gun size was a result of greater range of torpedoes necessitating greater range in guns. However, as the longer range heater torpedoes did not enter service until 1909/10 this would appear not to be the case.
Consider also that a capital ship costs 20-30 times more than a destroyer and that early capital ships did not respond terribly well to being hit by torpedoes. Thus the anti torpedo boat armament needs to reliably stop the attacking vessels before they launch their torpedoes. An arguably better strategy is to deploy a screen of your own destroyers to protect your capital ships.
A further point to consider is that Britain had a huge numerical preponderance in Battleships and they were for the most part significantly larger than their rivals vessels. Thus the battlefleet would be expected to deal with their opposite numbers in any encounter. It is consequently desirable to avoid torpedo craft complicating matters and destroyers were largely defensive (emphasising gun over torpedo) and designed to deal with their opposite numbers. The increase in size of destoyers could be interpreted as a desire to decisively counter their opposite numbers (i.e. TBDDs and TBDDDs) with increased seaworthiness being incidental or vice versa.
 

madaz

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very nice site , has some ships ive never seen before , and logical versions of some that Ive red about ., certainly would make things bery interesting .
 

Slider6

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Forgive me , I'm just the artist that makes SES's models , but ive often wondered just how strong the Historical line is in playing game sims like DG and Jutland . For example what if pre dreadnought England thought it might be possible to establish World Dominion by sinking everyones elses navies .. or The American and Japanese WW2 fleets fought it out without aircraft carriers ...or the Germans got hold Of the French Navy in WW1 ....or if you could build a fleet of any ships from the same time period what would you choose and would you want to play a game based on that ?

thanks

Steve Estes
These won't be popular statements.

I think the creativity is by far the most important. I think SES fails many times in that category, paralized by the mindset and fear of departing from an illusion of "historical" they don't pursue all alternatives. They would be more successful if they offered options of less (lets call it) seriousness.

I know SES customers are fixated on (reality trivial details) historical this and that. It does add historical context and the gamers illusion they are recreating history which is extremely important to almost all gamers (including me). I think SES products tend to lead in historical detail (for whatever that is worth) to a fault :)

Make a good interesting game with play depth (depth sometimes requires history departure) within historical context and goals.

Great models and keep up the awesome work steve! I do like what SES delivers :)
 

madaz

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I agree , but then I am an artist and have a bias toward the creative . Jutland offers up a situation to explore the finite limits of naval gun battle before the rise of aircraft . I would be very interested in "what If " kinds of scenarios, customizable battle fleets etc . What SES has done by making such an accurate game engine would allow for both historical sim and what if types of play , much more so than game that designed for just play depth and historical goals . I think the potential for the game engine has yet to be tapped out .
 

saddletank

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Bullethead touched upon an interesting idea when we were discussing why SES hadn't written a full Jan-1915 to Dec-1916 campaign in the new ship pack release. He said because losses would be such that the player would need a kind of 'Total War' option to build additional ships (either extra members of existing classes or new ships) and in that context a separate side of the game that fell into 'economics and war effort' would be an interesting layer to have. The player would have the option of building quite a lot of extra ships but doing so would shift the victory conditions back in the enemy's favour (because diverting resources to shipbuilding reduces the same resource pool available for the army and air services and general steel industry) - or in other words, each fictional ship built would cost both time and VPs. On top of that it woul dbe wonderful to have a ship construction option to build your own fictional ships. This would necessitate a library of standard parts such as hull forms (Mackensen, Baden, Konig, Queen Elizabeth, Tiger, Renown, R Class, Hood, etc), power plants, armour layouts, basic turrets and guns and then generic superstructures that fit into the spaces left over - all this could be constructed from the existing library of 3D ship model parts but the launched ship would have its own set of characteristics based on the sum of the parts she was built from.
 
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madaz

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On top of that it would be wonderful to have a ship construction option to build your own fictional ships. This would necessitate a library of standard parts such as hull forms (Mackensen, Baden, Konig, Queen Elizabeth, Tiger, Renown, R Class, Hood, etc), power plants, armour layouts, basic turrets and guns and then generic superstructures that fit into the spaces left over - all this could be constructed from the existing library of 3D ship model parts but the launched ship would have its own set of characteristics based on the sum of the parts she was built from.[/QUOTE]

Interesting Idea , however by upping flexibility , details would be lost . the rigging would pose a problem since it connects all over the ship, as would all the little stuff on the decks . the life boats would have to be shifted . in other words > all that extra stuff that makes the ships look like real ships . the new hybrids would not match well with the existing ships . Then the damage modeling would have to be done completely differently .

However there are probably some most probable combinations that could be built ahead of time and then selected .

This is not like building with legos . Its a lot of work to line up all the parts and not have them passing thorough each other or floating in the air .

I could see a game that was a DIY but it would not look like what Jutland looks like . You have to start with that kind of idea from the beginning .
 

saddletank

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Good point about the rigging and minor details. I did suggest that general superstructure could be plugged in from a basic library of options, so the rigging, boats and minor guns would be standard and would all connect to the right places and not overlap.

It is though a whole new approach to the issue of a WWI naval campaign and I can see that given the way the ship models are built it would require a total rethink. I used to work in train simulators building 3D models of locos and rolling stock and getting the child parts to fit with the parent parts with a logical heirachy is a task that has to be decided before you begin work... I guess my idea was just a big wish on the Big Wish List.
 

Crackaces

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Good point about the rigging and minor details. I did suggest that general superstructure could be plugged in from a basic library of options, so the rigging, boats and minor guns would be standard and would all connect to the right places and not overlap.

It is though a whole new approach to the issue of a WWI naval campaign and I can see that given the way the ship models are built it would require a total rethink. I used to work in train simulators building 3D models of locos and rolling stock and getting the child parts to fit with the parent parts with a logical hierarchy is a task that has to be decided before you begin work... I guess my idea was just a big wish on the Big Wish List.
Microsoft made an attempt at this with their flight simulator. You could customize certain sections and flight characteristics would change accordingly. One problem is how demanding this particular market can be ... I am sure whatever was designed would be wrong historically ....:)
 

saddletank

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Given SES' customer base I think some boundaries would sensibly be set to prohibit "wrong" designs. You could build a QE class with 16" guns but they would only do 21knots, or a Mackensen with 11" that could do 30... small changes mostly... not silly fantasy stuff. I don't think 'cartoon' ships would have any appeal on this forum.
 

madaz

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Thing is ,bigger guns usually meant changing the hull ( lengthening mostly ). So now you have to have a hull change to fit the weapons upgrade . It goes on from there . Historically nothing was ever standardized , Hell, the British couldn't even put two identical funnels on a ship . One is either taller or fatter or rounder than another .
It would be easier to just make a ship with proper combination of upgrades . Well at least I could do it since I do have all the parts . But it would be more than swapping out stuff . To change the hull means re texuring the hull . You'll note that on my models there is very little tileing of textures ( there is but you can't see it ) .

I think a game could be designed around ultimate fexiblity with standardized parts , but again, that would have to be decided from the beggining . the springsharpe program would be very useful .

For a Jutland style sim I dont think we would run out of real what if designs anytime soon . Or for that matter real historcal ships .
Not that it wouldnt' be just sooooo much fun to run up some of The Tillman designs .
 

Paladin851

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It looks to me that SES has already done to some extent what folks have mentioned above. The first time in game that a US battleship from Ship pack 1 fired on a capital ship of the High Seas Fleet we crossed the line between historical scenarios and hypothetical s. They have already supplied us with warships that never saw action against there counterparts ( capital ships) of the Imperial Germany Navy. I for one would be well pleased if SES were to stick to the ships that actually existed ( such as the ships of the already released ship pack 1 ) or were being built during the course of the war.

Regards
Paladin
 
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Paladin851

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These won't be popular statements.

I think the creativity is by far the most important. I think SES fails many times in that category, paralized by the mindset and fear of departing from an illusion of "historical" they don't pursue all alternatives. They would be more successful if they offered options of less (lets call it) seriousness.

I know SES customers are fixated on (reality trivial details) historical this and that. It does add historical context and the gamers illusion they are recreating history which is extremely important to almost all gamers (including me). I think SES products tend to lead in historical detail (for whatever that is worth) to a fault :)

Make a good interesting game with play depth (depth sometimes requires history departure) within historical context and goals.

Great models and keep up the awesome work steve! I do like what SES delivers :)
I tend to lump theses things into one of two categories...Game or Simulation.All due respects but at the end of the day it comes down to what you were looking for when you bought Jutland. If it was a game with all the variables and game play balance then you may not have found what you were looking for. If you were looking for a simulation (which is what Jutland was advertised as an Historical Simulation) then you found yourself with what I believe is the best Sim relating to WW1 naval warfare that we have seen to date. I suspect it comes down to ones preferences and those with an interest in Historical accuracy fixated or otherwise are entitled to theres as much as you are to yours. If SES had created Jutland as a game then your statements above would be spot on but I suspect they would produce that game at the same level of quality we have seen in there Sims.

Regards
Paladin
 
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