Human Wave - should it be excluded sometimes?

[DonWPetros]

Would it be historically correct to deny the Russians the ability in certain battles to conduct a Human Wave (A25.23)?

If so, when? If not, why not?

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

What say you?

 

[bendizoid]

Would it be historically correct to deny the Russians the ability in certain battles to conduct a Human Wave (A25.23)?

If so, when? If not, why not?

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

What say you?

Yes, don’t know when

 

[A_T_Great]

It would be historically correct to allow other nations to conduct human wave charges. Particularly U.S. and late war Germans. It is amazing how many times men were ordered to a mass charge by officers who should have known better.

 

[GeorgeBates]

It would be historically correct to allow other nations to conduct human wave charges. Particularly U.S. and late war Germans. It is amazing how many times men were ordered to a mass charge by officers who should have known better.

Bayonet Charge (W.6) is a step in this direction. No reason it can't be applied by SSR in specific situations during the '30s and '40s.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Yes, don’t know when

When out of vodka?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not allowed in Festung Budapest, IIRC.

 

[von Marwitz]

Of course, it depends on the scenario. Barring HW might make sense in the same way in some situations as barring Kindling.

In general, though, I don't think that HW requires more regulation beyond a specific scenario design. Opposed to Banzai Charges, a regular HW requires so many units in particular places along with very specific terrain to make it less than suicidal. In other words, it comes up rather rarely anyway.

von Marwitz

 

[PresterJohn]

There's a long history, before and since WW2, of masses of poorly trained troops being used in the only offensive tactical maneuver they can effectively conduct. Some ASL scenarios are built around the use of human waves. On the other hand there is probably no harm in using SSR's in specific scenarios to prevent its use. Primarily it is one of those "flavour" things.

 

[FrankH.]

Would it be historically correct to deny the Russians the ability in certain battles to conduct a Human Wave (A25.23)?

If so, when? If not, why not?

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

What say you?

Scenario designers may make it difficult but not impossible for a Human Wave - reduce the number of leaders and/or force the setup of MMC to be spread out so as not easy to setup for a HW. IOW even if a HW did not happen it possibly could.

 

[Robin Reeve]

A scenario with five or less Soviet squads precludes HW.

 

[DonWPetros]

Good stuff. The setting for the scenario(s) - Kursk region, '43. Guards units involved in some cases, and in other cases somewhat few regular army MMCs. So, I'm confident that using an SSR to state:

' Human Waves are NA'. There, that solves it.

 

[Bill Cirillo]

Not allowed in Festung Budapest, IIRC.

Nor is it allowed in any of the Twilight of the Reich scenarios given how late in the war the scenarios are set. None of my research indicated that the Soviets employed such Human Wave tactics covered by the TotR scenarios. Instead, research indicated that the Soviets employed for their urban battles more of a dedicated assault group structure of combined infantry, assault engineers, MGs, FTs, armor formations supported often by direct fire ordnance.

 

[DonWPetros]

Nor is it allowed in any of the Twilight of the Reich scenarios given how late in the war the scenarios are set. None of my research indicated that the Soviets employed such Human Wave tactics covered by the TotR scenarios. Instead, research indicated that the Soviets employed for their urban battles more of a dedicated assault group structure of combined infantry, assault engineers, MGs, FTs, armor formations supported often by direct fire ordnance.

Nice, thanks for the backup, Bill.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Nor is it allowed in any of the Twilight of the Reich scenarios given how late in the war the scenarios are set.

Tom Morin SSRed a Bayonet Charge in 291 Bridge over River Queen, though, but its setting is Stalingrad, so not late war.
I played it solo, and the Bayonet Charge was incredibly efficient with Commissar led NKVD troops.
But you weren't the designer.

 

[PresterJohn]

I would expect that by 1943 the Russians would have far fewer "untrained masses" to desperately throw into the breach, so for scenarios set later in the war one might expect the OOBs will provide for better tactical solutions. And I think this is in fact the case, unless somebody feels that Human Wave actually gives the Russian a serious advantage in those scenarios where HW is SSR'd out.

 

[zgrose]

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

If the idea is that in Battle X the units were smart enough not to run in a suicide rush, then sure. SSR 2: Human Wave NA

It feels like you think players should expect to Human Wave in every scenario pre-19xx.

 

[Bill Cirillo]

Tom Morin SSRed a Bayonet Charge in 291 Bridge over River Queen, though, but its setting is Stalingrad, so not late war.
I played it solo, and the Bayonet Charge was incredibly efficient with Commissar led NKVD troops.
But you weren't the designer.

Robin,

Good point. I should have been more specific. For the 15 scenarios that Sean Deller and I created for Twilight of the Reich, which are all set after September 1, 1944, nothing indicated that Human Waves were used, but rather the Russians had started to employ an integrated assault team construct as a fundamental part of their urban warfare strategy.

As noted, scenario 291, which Tom Morin designed deals with this issue in a different manner.

Bill

 

[asloser]

Based on my readings of the Finnish side of things I'd say the Russian army Finns fought in 1939-1940-1941 during the winter war and opening pheases of the contination war was tactically completely different animal than the Russian army that launched the big assaults agains Finns in 1944. Finns faced a steep learning curve in first weeks of June 1944.

IMO Human wave should NA after 1942 or 1943 after Russians learned what worked.

Edit: also the modern medium- small scenario size means that most of the time you just cannot spare the resources for a human wave. I have done it less than 10 times myself, and some of those had sealed my loss by just inflicting too may casualties.

 

[PresterJohn]

I have unashamedly stolen this reference from the internet. It is what it is.

The Battle of Psel
The Totenkopf made a night-time raid to seize a key hill above the Psel but it was driven back. The Soviets kept up their pressure on the right flank of Hausser's corps, sending repeated human-wave attacks against the 167th Infantry Division that had just relieved the Totenkopf. Thousands of Russian infantrymen, many of them press-ganged civilians, were mown down by well-aimed artillery fire that was called down within a few hundred metres of the German frontline.

Page 55, Great Battles of the Waffen SS by Peter Darman, Grange Books 2004.

Were there really press-ganged civilians at Kursk? I don't know but if your scenario involves desparate (counter)attacking with masses of poorly trained troops then a Human Wave might be the only decent tactical choice.

Even in 1945 the Russians weren't afraid of losses, but they were much better in keeping their losses down by using better small unit tactics. Supposedly in 1945 Zhukov was questioned by an observer about the Soviet attacks through German minefields instead of going around or calling up engineers. Zhukov said that the infantry had basic training in dealing with minefields and they would take less casualties if they went through the minefield rather than around (and into the German prepared fires).

 

[Cpl Uhl]

Is it possible to watch football without beer? Have a BBQ without meat? Geez, some people wanna take all the fun outta life.

Saw a PTO scenario recently which denied the Japanese all HIP. In 1945! Geez, some people wanna take all the fun outta life.