Gully orchard movement costs.

[Hubbs5]

We are doing a playtest for Jebsheim and one of the playtesters said that if you are exiting a gully orchard hex the cost is 3 MF into open ground and 5 to exit the gully into a building. I had never heard of the orchard in a gully costing an extra 1 MF. I know that combination terrain costs are cumulative, but an orchard doesn't cost extra MF normally, does it?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There's no extra MF/MP cost for any orchards in the gully hex when exiting such a hex. You only pay the MF/MP cost for the hex you enter.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Wouldn't the extra MF be due to Ground Snow, which adds an MF to a level change?
Jebsheim's map - after pictures I have seen - is snow covered (quite like Hatten's).

 

[Hubbs5]

Wouldn't the extra MF be due to Ground Snow, which adds an MF to a level change?
Jebsheim's map - after pictures I have seen - is snow covered (quite like Hatten's).

Yes, there is an extra MF for the snow, but according to this playtester the orchard added an additional MF. He told Vincent Alonzo at Winter offensive about the extra MF for the orchard gully and Bill Cirillo sent it to the rest of the playtesters as an official ASL rule. They said it wasn't in the rulebook it was on the chart. Did anyone else hear about this at Winter offensive?

 

[PresterJohn]

From the Terrain Chart for Gully. The cost to enter a Gully that is not Open Ground. There may be some confusion as to entering or exiting on the part of somebody in the telephone chain.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...also note that the extra 1 MF for the Orchard to enter a frozen/dry stream (mostly treated as a gully) does not apply when entering across a Depression hexside.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The original question was about exiting a Gully orchard ("5 to exit the gully into a building") so I suggested the +1 MF cost for changing levels in ground snow.

 

[Hubbs5]

View attachment 35377
From the Terrain Chart for Gully. The cost to enter a Gully that is not Open Ground. There may be some confusion as to entering or exiting on the part of somebody in the telephone chain.

Ah yes, that is what I was looking for, thank you. It isn't the Orchard that does it, it is because Orchard invokes the "not open ground" penalty. Thank you, I finally understand. And yes, Klas is right as usual, it is only an entry penalty, not when leaving the hex. Sorry my question wasn't worded well.

 

[PresterJohn]

...also note that the extra 1 MF for the Orchard to enter a frozen/dry stream (mostly treated as a gully) does not apply when entering across a Depression hexside.

Should there be a link to B33.11 in B19.4 to make that easier to find?

 

[Hubbs5]

B

Should there be a link to B33.11 in B19.4 to make that easier to find?

33.11 and B19.4 do NOT state that non-open ground terrain in a gully adds +1. It only states that terrain in a gully is cumulative. Orchard is normally treated like open ground for movement purposes so that would add nothing to gully movement if you use the cumulative argument. Nowhere in the Rulebook does it state that non-open ground terrain adds one to movement in a gully. The only place this is found is in a footnote in the terrain chart. Was this intentional, or did they try to correct the Rule with a foot note? To me this is something that should be added to the Rulebook. I have played ASL for 41 years and read the Rulebook cover to cover and I never heard of that until a playtester mentioned the obscure footnote.

 

[Bjoernar]

After B33 rules appeared in KGP one became aware that orchard is not "open ground cost", it is one MF, like graveyard and some others.

 

[Hubbs5]

After B33 rules appeared in KGP one became aware that orchard is not "open ground cost", it is one MF, like graveyard and some others.

I guess I don't understand, I have KGP rules and the most updated Rules and I have played a KGP campaign game. How did you become aware of this?

 

[PresterJohn]

In B33.11 it says the +1 doesn't apply when moving across a Depression hexside, which is why I think there should be a link in B19.4 so you can see this more easily.

 

[Hubbs5]

In B33.11 it says the +1 doesn't apply when moving across a Depression hexside, which is why I think there should be a link in B19.4 so you can see this more easily.

Here is my copy of the latest electronic Rulebook: I am not trying to obstinate or argumentative, but I don't see what you are referencing.


33.11 ENTRY: A unit enters a stream (including a dry stream)— woods/brush/orchard hex across a stream hexside at the normal (for its depth; 20.4-.44) stream cost. If entering across a non-stream hexside, movement costs are cumulative (e.g., five MF to enter a shallow-stream woods/brush hex-three for a shallow stream (20.42) plus two for the woods or brush-or four MF to enter a shallow stream-orchard hex or a dry stream-woods hex. AFV Riders are unaffected by woods/orchards while IN the stream. Here is my copy of the latest electronic Rulebook.

 

[semenza]

The stumbling block to thinking about this is that Open Ground costs 1MF and Orchard cost 1MF. So the cumulative part makes us think that Orchard does not add to the Gully cost because it costs the same as Open Ground.

But think of it like the terrain was Woods Gully, which cost 4MF ..... 2MF for the Gully and 2MF for the Woods = 4MF (cumulative). So Orchard Gully is 2MF for the Gully and 1 MF for the Orchard (because it is not Open Ground) = 3MF for Orchard Gully. Open Ground is excepted from being cumulative but not Orchard or any other terrain.

Seth

 

[PresterJohn]

Here is my copy of the latest electronic Rulebook: I am not trying to obstinate or argumentative, but I don't see what you are referencing.


33.11 ENTRY: A unit enters a stream (including a dry stream)— woods/brush/orchard hex across a stream hexside at the normal (for its depth; 20.4-.44) stream cost. If entering across a non-stream hexside, movement costs are cumulative (e.g., five MF to enter a shallow-stream woods/brush hex-three for a shallow stream (20.42) plus two for the woods or brush-or four MF to enter a shallow stream-orchard hex or a dry stream-woods hex. AFV Riders are unaffected by woods/orchards while IN the stream. Here is my copy of the latest electronic Rulebook.

As it says, moving from a gully hex to a gully hex across a gully hexside is the normal gully cost (of two). A gully is treated the same as a dry stream so you can repeat that statement and substitute "dry stream" instead of "gully" .

Then it goes on to say that if you enter the gully across a non-gully hexside the cost will be cumulative with the terrain (as per the Ch B chart).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

B33.11 only applies to a dry stream - not a normal gully. Entry of a gully+orchard is 3 MF even if crossing a gully hexside.

 

[PresterJohn]

Right, so there is the expected link in B20.41. I thought there should be a link to B33.11 somewhere.

And that makes the Chap B table Gully entry exception free.

Ignore the previous illogic.

 

[PresterJohn]

The stumbling block to thinking about this is that Open Ground costs 1MF and Orchard cost 1MF. So the cumulative part makes us think that Orchard does not add to the Gully cost because it costs the same as Open Ground.

But think of it like the terrain was Woods Gully, which cost 4MF ..... 2MF for the Gully and 2MF for the Woods = 4MF (cumulative). So Orchard Gully is 2MF for the Gully and 1 MF for the Orchard (because it is not Open Ground) = 3MF for Orchard Gully. Open Ground is excepted from being cumulative but not Orchard or any other terrain.

Seth

There also seems to be a reality argument, in that the brush or trees are actually growing in the bottom of the gully too, adding to the extra cost of walking along the gully. Whereas the exception for streams invokes that the brush or trees cannot be growing in the water (or where the water was), so walking along the stream doesn't add the cost of the extra terrain in the hex. Now to remember that this applies to a Wadi as well.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Orchards don't add to the MF cost in open ground, so the argument about the trees making movement less easy in a gully is not very convincing.
But one can consider that an "orchard" in a gully is not a cultivated orchard (with trees arranged in rows) but trees without udergrowth, growing in a random way, so it could be less easy to move around them.