Discuss the improved AI with the update

[Firestorm]

I didn't buy Dogger Bank yet (I'm going to wait untill my new PC arrives), but after Jutland updated I started a new campaign and I can already tell the AI is much improved.

For instance in every campaign I played before. As the Germans, I would always send the Scouting Group (only BC's and CL's) down to mine Dover. They would of course always end up encountering the Harwich Force at night. The AI would always engage, keep sending every ship into visual range and my BC's would wipe out the entire Harwich Force with little damage in return.

After the update now the Harwich Force always runs away and I can only pick off one or two ships before the rest disappear into the dark.

Good job guys.

:thumup:

 

[saddletank]

This is good to hear. The Kamikaze Harwich Force was always very annoying!

 

[Evil Koala]

I didn't buy Dogger Bank yet (I'm going to wait untill my new PC arrives), but after Jutland updated I started a new campaign and I can already tell the AI is much improved.

For instance in every campaign I played before. As the Germans, I would always send the Scouting Group (only BC's and CL's) down to mine Dover. They would of course always end up encountering the Harwich Force at night. The AI would always engage, keep sending every ship into visual range and my BC's would wipe out the entire Harwich Force with little damage in return.

After the update now the Harwich Force always runs away and I can only pick off one or two ships before the rest disappear into the dark.

Good job guys.

:thumup:

I just sent my Scouting Fleet to bombard Yarmouth and ran into a CL fleet at night. They engaged my fleet and I sank 26 CL's and DD's with a loss of a single DD of my own.. Not sure if the AI was just being suicidal or if they were trying to slow me down as the next morning I encountered the Grand Fleet trying to cut off my RTB. I was able to stay just out of range and escaped.. Then as soon as the battle ends, it starts over again right back were everything started..

I remember reading something along the lines of "every ship is actually tracked down to the meter even in the campaign map". I'll see if I can find the quote, but it obviously doesn't really work this way.. Is there a way to get my fleet home? They dont stand a chance against the GF and running away puts me into an infinite loop.

Honestly I'm a bit disappointed. All of the bugs and gripes that I've had with the game are still present. It seems all of the waiting was for them to work on their DRM.

EDIT: During one of the loops, I came just inside their firing range (~21500m). They fired a few shots that missed, then Von Der Tann explodes and sinks instantly. Infinite loop broken. I rage quit.

 

[brucesim2003]

One thing that has not changed that I was hoping would: The AI seems to greatly prefer a reciprocal course to yours. I have yet to see it sail a parallel course. This leads to a turning battle around one point, as both fleets try to keep their arcs open. Tis rather annoying.
I set up a test battle with two opposing battle squadrons on a converging course. The 1st thing the AI does is to reverse course.

Can this be looked at?

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Paladinus]

Results of a night encounter of I SG vs. about 30 destroyers/light cruisers:
I lost BC Moltke and CL Wiesbaden to british torpedoes. All the other BCs got hit with torpedoes( VdT: 1, Seydlitz: 3, Derf: 2)...

ALL my BCs out of action for at least a few months... Seems like I need to improve my tactics cause AI did.

 

[saddletank]

One thing that has not changed that I was hoping would: The AI seems to greatly prefer a reciprocal course to yours.
Can this be looked at?

Odd. I don't beleive I have ever seen the AI do this. Usually in campaign battles one side wants to force the issue and one side wants to get away; in fact that is common in most of the naval engagements of WWI in the N Sea - very few times did both sides cruise along shooting - even the Run to the South had "Run" in it's title.

I think all my battles consist of this - one side chasing the other.

 

[HMSWarspite]

And I haven't played the release version yet (only the equivalent beta), but I have never had a recip course. Would depend on the approach of course, but I have never seen the AI to a radical course change except to disengage. Seems strange...

 

[brucesim2003]

Odd. I don't beleive I have ever seen the AI do this. Usually in campaign battles one side wants to force the issue and one side wants to get away; in fact that is common in most of the naval engagements of WWI in the N Sea - very few times did both sides cruise along shooting - even the Run to the South had "Run" in it's title.

I think all my battles consist of this - one side chasing the other.

All of my battles to date have been stand-alone. I prefer smaller squadron battles - the idea of a major fleet action is rather terrifying. Keeping track of what is going on in a smaller battle is "interesting" enough. 20-40 ships is a bit much I think.

Cheers


Bruce

 

[saddletank]

Don't get me wrong Bruce, I wasn't trying to be awkward, it's just that I've never see the AI behaviour you describe even in single battles.

Most of the campaign batles I play involve quite small forces - I hardly ever have fleet actions. All I can say is I have never seen this circling around behaviour that you have.

 

[HMSWarspite]

The Ai may be differently programmed between battles and campaign encounters (I dont know for sure, but I am sure something was mentioned in one of the Devs emails). I have played both, and never seen any circles - unless I did it myself, and then I made the AI do a circle, I didn't. Used 2 forces to alternate engagement, and the AI kept trying to turn away when getting trashed (i.e. sensible actions)

 

[mariandavid]

I keep hearing this and have come across a few cases (in mine mainly French being suicidal). The trouble is that this seems in very many cases to have been exactly what light craft (DD, TB, FL and LC) did in the 'real war'. The trouble is that we are very well aware of discrepancies of power - but there is a very great deal of information that suggests that to most sailors (or both sides) all that was irrelevent tosh. As far as big ships are concerned the only case of 'charge into the jaws of death regardless' have been four French armoured cruisers in the 1915 Channel scenario: And that sort of made a sick sense since a few hits would have slowed down the battle-cruisers and leave them exposed to the endless pred-dreadnoughts in the distance.

 

[Bullethead]

I keep hearing this and have come across a few cases (in mine mainly French being suicidal). The trouble is that this seems in very many cases to have been exactly what light craft (DD, TB, FL and LC) did in the 'real war'. The trouble is that we are very well aware of discrepancies of power - but there is a very great deal of information that suggests that to most sailors (or both sides) all that was irrelevent tosh.

Torpedo attacks on hale fellows well met (as opposed to by surprise), in both world wars, usually resulted in 30-50% losses to the attackers and little if any actual harm done to the targets, other than a temporary disruption of their formation. But this didn't stop folks from trying over and over.

As far as big ships are concerned the only case of 'charge into the jaws of death regardless' have been four French armoured cruisers in the 1915 Channel scenario: And that sort of made a sick sense since a few hits would have slowed down the battle-cruisers and leave them exposed to the endless pred-dreadnoughts in the distance.

Admiral Rouyer's orders were to keep the Germans from getting into the Atlantic. On the 1st day of the war, before the UK joined in, Rouyers was at sea with little more than you see in this scenario, ready to take on the whole HSF if need be.

 

[mariandavid]

Very true - but I think the chance of success is much reduced compared with 'real' life because the rate of advance is crippled by our (player) ability to concentrate on the lead ship, slow it down and therefore the whole attack. In the real world this would not happen in these 'do or die' cases, partly because the real world opponent would not know which was the 'leader' (ie not always in the front) and, more important, since in these conditions captains paid remarkably little attention to the decorum of position. In other words - 'pedal to the metal and don't bother me, navigator, with details on what is happening to the squadron commodore'.

My suggestion (as I like to be helpful) is to allow the AI much more flexibilty in replacing leaders than at present (which sort of matches very conventional behaviour of very domineering admirals eg Beatty). Instead allow immediate switches when the flag speed drops below circa 25% of her MAXIMUM (not squadron speed), adding 5% (approx) for each additional replacement leader. EG: Lion (max 26knts) leads - battle damage reduces her to 20knts; Tiger takes over - battle damage reduces her to 18 knts (my figures are approximate), a 3rd takes over etc. The key here is of course that if Tiger was at 18knts when Lion was 'removed from lead' then a 3rd untouched ship would take over.

I think that this would be easy to programme (@@@### says the one responsible!) and would make the AI both more deadly and more annoying. As an example of what I am trying to avoid: in a recent game Leviathan led a group of 6 AC in a head on charge to 6" and torp range. But she was hit again and again, slowing all the time and it was not until she was at about 12-14 knts (from a 22?? knt start) that hand-over and increase speed of squadron: Which of course slowed it down so that it never reached a distance where it could swing to parallel and start inflicting serious damage.

Hope this helps.

 

[saddletank]

In my SP games I try and 'help' the AI by never slaughtering the leader but always trying to engage every ship with one of mine.

 

[Invincible]

Just caught up and read this whole thread. The issue that resonated most with me is Brucesim2003's comment on AI controlled capital ships forming a battleline that sails on a reciprocal course to the opponent. This was one of the most annoying aspects before Dogger Bank and I was hoping it would be corrected. It is not realistic, forces a turning engagement (death spiral) and generates high bearing rates.

Like Bruce I see this in single scenarios with the number of capital ships on a side ranging from 4 to 12 (could happen outside this range but haven't tried it with scenarios to check). I see it when playing AI to AI and human to AI.