Concealment Process for set-up

[Kohlenklau]

I did a search of this forum and didn't strike paydirt.

I have read the rulebook 3.14 section on set-up and concealment A12.12 on page A35.
I think my buddy and I do this wrong but I like our way better.

For example with our current scenario Egypt's Last Hope.
I do not have any OB "?" counters. I do have various red font concealment terrain, even a few stone buildings. Rare for DTO scenarios.
But if I understand A12.12 properly, I can't put anybody in concealment at game start?
I do have a couple 6-pounders in those stone buildings so they do get HIP.

The rules are the rules. Our house rule misinterpretation is that we CAN use concealment terrain to conceal our squads, even if no OB "?" counters.

Any good articles folks have that they might share so I can see this presented in a more understandable way?
Thanks fellas.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...we CAN use concealment terrain to conceal our squads, even if no OB "?" counters.

You can do that, if the enemy does not set up anything on board (i.e., they all enter).

In Egypt's Last Hope (J80; 270) the Germans do set up on the board.

 

[EagleIV]

But if I understand A12.12 properly, I can't put anybody in concealment at game start?

You can put real units in concealment terrain during setup.
If you had OB given "?" they have to be put in concealment terrain during setup, but that isn't the case.

Since the Germans don't set up anyone on board, after placing all you units you can place a "?" on top of any stack that doesn't already have an OB given "?" in it. In you case that means everyone (in any terrain) will get concealed.

 

[WuWei]

After setup, any unit not in LOS of an enemy unit (or >16 hexes away from all) that doesn't already have concealment gets concealment.

You and your buddy can play it differently if you like, but keep in mind that the balancing of a scenario may shift if you introduce concealment not intended by the scenario designer.

 

[Kohlenklau]

A12.12 PLACEMENT: The player setting up first in a scenario does so out of vision of his opponent, and after setting up his regular units may place only scenario OB-designated “?” at first—but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart. After his opponent sets up in the same manner, each unconcealed unit (of both sides) which is either out of the LOS of all unbroken enemy ground units within 16 hexes of it, or at ≥ 17 hexes from all of them, may have a “?” not designated by the OB placed on it [EXC: only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units and not on top of any previously placed “?”]. Therefore, if one side begins with no forces on board, the other side will be able to place “?” on all of its non-Dummy units after placing those units (before the opponent may look at the board). Thereafter, a “?” may be placed on top of any non concealed Good Order unit/stack before it enters the mapboard for the first time. During play (and in addition to all other restrictions; see 12.121) an In fantry unit can gain “?” only if it is non-concealed and in Good Order, and only at the end of its own Player Turn. A unit can never gain “?” while broken or berserk, because such a unit is not in Good Order.

So, the red font SEEMS TO ME to say that both players get to look at the entire board and in a scenario with no OB "?" counters, both see all the unconcealed enemy units AND THEN both players figure out the range and LOS to see which units THEN get concealment.
So, my opponent sees my HMG and such and then the big tactical surprise is kind of lost?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A12.12 PLACEMENT: The player setting up first in a scenario does so out of vision of his opponent, and after setting up his regular units may place only scenario OB-designated “?” at first—but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart. After his opponent sets up in the same manner, each unconcealed unit (of both sides) which is either out of the LOS of all unbroken enemy ground units within 16 hexes of it, or at ≥ 17 hexes from all of them, may have a “?” not designated by the OB placed on it [EXC: only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units and not on top of any previously placed “?”]. Therefore, if one side begins with no forces on board, the other side will be able to place “?” on all of its non-Dummy units after placing those units (before the opponent may look at the board). Thereafter, a “?” may be placed on top of any non concealed Good Order unit/stack before it enters the mapboard for the first time. During play (and in addition to all other restrictions; see 12.121) an In fantry unit can gain “?” only if it is non-concealed and in Good Order, and only at the end of its own Player Turn. A unit can never gain “?” while broken or berserk, because such a unit is not in Good Order.

So, the red font SEEMS TO ME to say that both players get to look at the entire board and in a scenario with no OB "?" counters, both see all the unconcealed enemy units AND THEN both players figure out the range and LOS to see which units THEN get concealment.
So, my opponent sees my HMG and such and then the big tactical surprise is kind of lost?

Correct, if both players set up onbaord. If only one side does - see the blue text..

 

[Kohlenklau]

Correct, if both players set up onbaord. If only one side does - see the blue text..

Yes, I follow that situation. We have played a few like that. Very clear cut!

I guess our house rule for scenarios where BOTH sides have units onboard is that we conceal it all and then do the joint analysis to lose concealment as applicable.
It seems so hosed up to allow each player to view the units in their locations and THEN add concealment.
But I aint no game designer.

Thanks fellas.

 

[Doug Leslie]

A12.12 PLACEMENT: The player setting up first in a scenario does so out of vision of his opponent, and after setting up his regular units may place only scenario OB-designated “?” at first—but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart. After his opponent sets up in the same manner, each unconcealed unit (of both sides) which is either out of the LOS of all unbroken enemy ground units within 16 hexes of it, or at ≥ 17 hexes from all of them, may have a “?” not designated by the OB placed on it [EXC: only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units and not on top of any previously placed “?”]. Therefore, if one side begins with no forces on board, the other side will be able to place “?” on all of its non-Dummy units after placing those units (before the opponent may look at the board). Thereafter, a “?” may be placed on top of any non concealed Good Order unit/stack before it enters the mapboard for the first time. During play (and in addition to all other restrictions; see 12.121) an In fantry unit can gain “?” only if it is non-concealed and in Good Order, and only at the end of its own Player Turn. A unit can never gain “?” while broken or berserk, because such a unit is not in Good Order.

So, the red font SEEMS TO ME to say that both players get to look at the entire board and in a scenario with no OB "?" counters, both see all the unconcealed enemy units AND THEN both players figure out the range and LOS to see which units THEN get concealment.
So, my opponent sees my HMG and such and then the big tactical surprise is kind of lost?

You can try to hide the HMG if It sets up in a position from which it can’t be seen by the enemy, including being at a range of seventeen plus hexes (stack inspection isn’t allowed until both sides have set up and concealment counters are placed). So you give the HMG to a leader and stack an MMC on top. After concealing the stack, you then need to have the leader transfer the HMG to the MMC in the first RPh. If you can repeat the trick with other stacks, you can achieve some element of surprise.

 

[Kohlenklau]

You can try to hide the HMG if It sets up in a position from which it can’t be seen by the enemy, including being at a range of seventeen plus hexes (stack inspection isn’t allowed until both sides have set up and concealment counters are placed). So you give the HMG to a leader and stack an MMC on top. After concealing the stack, you then need to have the leader transfer the HMG to the MMC in the first RPh. If you can repeat the trick with other stacks, you can achieve some element of surprise.

I follow you! Thanks.

 

[WuWei]

So, my opponent sees my HMG and such and then the big tactical surprise is kind of lost?

Yes. If the scenario designer wanted the option of a big surprise, he would have added a few OB-designated "?" (or even HIP). If you like the option of a big surprise, play scenarios with OB-designated "?". There are thousands of them out there.

 

[Kohlenklau]

I have played many scenarios with OB-designated "?" and as a relatively inexperienced ASLer I always see them as "dummies" (and call them that) to stack as decoys on their own to fool my opponent. Stacks of 2 or 3 or more to trick him and waste his efforts.

Take care guys!

 

[WuWei]

Yes, that's one of the decisions to make when setting up: Do I use the ? to build dummies, or do I use them to conceal my real units? Usually, you do both in varying proportions.

There are also tons of scenarios with setup instructions like "set up there and there, concealed if in Concealment Terrain". So your "house rule" isn't that outlandish.