BFP 3: Blood and Jungle

Count Belisarius

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Well, if as far as you're personally concerned, you don't find it acceptable, then don't pre-order (or pre-pay or whatever) and just buy it when it comes out :rolleyes:

They're not taking you're money. You're giving it to them under the terms agreed and under the assumption that things 'might' go wrong (e.g. misprinted product).

There's no pleasing some people...
 
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sswann

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Well, if as far as you're personally concerned, you don't find it acceptable, then don't pre-order (or per-pay or whatever) and just buy it when it comes out :rolleyes:

They're not taking you're money. You're giving it to them under the terms agreed and under the assumption that things 'might' go wrong (e.g. misprinted product).

There's no pleasing some people...
Aaaaaahhhhh...
Reality in sight! Good view!
 

Portal

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While Pitman's delivery of message might be a little strong, what he's saying is quite legitimate. I think it's fair to expect that a pre-pay (not pre-order) system should result in a product shipping within 30 days of money being taken.
 

Chas

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Mark,

As typical, you overlook the facts relevant to the discussion. As stated, we started the preorder process when we went the printers. Your argument here is 180 from previous, ie dont publish it until it is right. We expected it to be shorter as well, but were not going to allow a product published that didnt meet our standards. I am 100% sure based on your history that if we had published a faulty product, instead of making sure it was printed correctly, you would have been waving the banner in the attack against us. (Actually, guess you are doing that now, but are just leading yourself)

I appreciate you calling us a joke and accusing us of abusing our customers. With these statements you have lost all credibility with me. It demonstrates your lack of understanding and inability to form relevant, logical reasoning.

Chas
 

Pitman

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Mark,

As typical, you overlook the facts relevant to the discussion. As stated, we started the preorder process when we went the printers. Your argument here is 180 from previous, ie dont publish it until it is right. We expected it to be shorter as well, but were not going to allow a product published that didnt meet our standards. I am 100% sure based on your history that if we had published a faulty product, instead of making sure it was printed correctly, you would have been waving the banner in the attack against us. (Actually, guess you are doing that now, but are just leading yourself)
So let me see if I understand you. You are saying there are only two options: you ask for pre-pays well in advance of shipping or you publish a product that doesn't meet your standards.

I am pleased, then, to tell you about two other options. Option #3 is to not call for pre-pays until you know your product will not be faulty. Option #4 is to use a true pre-order system and only charge when shipping.

Note, by the way, that it doesn't matter the reasons why your last product was so late. Those are irrelevant to my point, which was about what you do in the future, not why you did what you did with past ones.


I appreciate you calling us a joke and accusing us of abusing our customers. With these statements you have lost all credibility with me. It demonstrates your lack of understanding and inability to form relevant, logical reasoning. Chas
You have all the customer relations ability of the swine flu virus, it would seem. First of all, don't use strawmen with me. I never called you a joke, nor did I say you "abused" your customers. Respond to what I say, not to what I say in your fevered dreams.

I think it ironic that in another post you actually have the testicles to claim that you "appreciate customer feedback." Apparently only when it is positive, though.

My original post, which was short, innocuous, and polite, was this:

Leaving that aside, I would like to request that BFP3 not be put up for pre-order until it is very nearly ready to be released. There was a lengthy delay with the last one, longer than I had anticipated. Thanks.
That is a pretty darn simple and clear request. And, by the way, totally reasonable. Your response to that polite request was to call it "absurd." Charming, to the last.

Despite your abusive response, I took the time and effort to explain what I was talking about. And it was a very reasonable post, especially considering the tone of your first response. It was also a constructive post, too. You apparently still don't get that, with my suggestion, I was trying to save you PR problems in the long run. If you want to develop the same PR problems that Critical Hit got for charging customers for products long before they shipped, be my guest. Go right ahead.

Now I am no longer bothering to be polite. Twice--once politely and once civilly--I tried to give you customer feedback. Twice, you in your thin-skinned Sally Sensitive outfit not only rejected my feedback (which is always a company's right, though it is usually silly to do it publicly) but abused me for giving it. I've got it now. You have a psychological inability to accept even the mildest criticism or suggestion that there is some way to improve on something that you have done. You have a fundamental insecurity that causes you to lash out at someone who even dares to offer that feedback. It's not that you disagree with the feedback but that you don't even have the slightest clue as to how a business--especially in an insular field such as this one--deals with responding to feedback.

Hey, you know what? It's your life. Do what you want. Don't expect me or other people to be constructive in the future, though. Or sympathetic if there are problems in the future. One last bit of constructive advice, though, before I depart this particular mortal coil: you might at least think about the strategic possibilities and benefits of learning how to respond nicely to customers. It is ballsy of you, I admit, to be abusive to me at the same time one of your partners is trying to urge me to put up reviews of your product on my web site. Luckily for you, I 1) have a thick skin, and 2) make it a point of making a genuine effort to put aside personal feelings and considerations when reviewing an ASL product. The next customer you insult might not be so principled.
 

Count Belisarius

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You have a psychological inability to accept even the mildest criticism or suggestion that there is some way to improve on something that you have done. You have a fundamental insecurity that causes you to lash out at someone who even dares to offer that feedback.
I'm sorry Mark, but based on that last post this pretty well applies to you as well...
 

Chas

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Gentlemen,

I apologize for this thread turning from the true subject, and I helped feed that. I am just done being bullied by certain people. The offline support is much appreciated.
As always, we will take all constructive criticism to help us improve our products. just a couple of examples are the large overlays that are now not too big to store and separate scenario cards.

to get this back on top, significant layout and editing accomplished this weekend and we continue to move forward:) Need to focus my time on that.

Thank you,
Chas
 

Pitman

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I bullied you??? I made a polite and perfectly reasonable request about the handling of the pre-orders for your next product. You were the one who started slinging mud.
 

wrongway149

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just a couple of examples are the large overlays that are now not too big to store and separate scenario cards.
Generally, Chas, your team's components are top-notch.

However, I felt that Into the Rubble could have benefitted from a less flimsy cover folio for the price.

JMO, and not a 'deal-killer' by any means.
 

rdw5150

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Giving Mark the benefit of the doubt here and assuming he forgot a smiley face as he discusses in one of the LFT articles. Otherwise this statement would be absurd. Didnt realize that ~85 days was not acceptable in this business.
Hi!

Sorry to chime in late, but I gotta admint I am on Mark's side on this one. Getting burned in the past has lead to decide not to Pre-Order anything that bills before the product is done. I think 85 days is a lot of time to have people's money and them not having their product.

This is nothing personal here as I was real impressed with the one BFP product I own (Into the Rubble). I'll be picking up the next two soon, but I had enough Normady for a while and my gaming budget is limited.

Peace

Roger
 

sswann

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Mark, could you please take your crying somewhere else. If you want to hijack the thread, please politely say so and we will start another PTO thread for the PTO. We really would like to discuss the upcoming PTO here. I have seen some of the preliminary stuff that is upcoming and while I will not give away the details, I believe that many of you will be very happy and pleasantly surprised at the contents. Only one hint.... think Japanese tank battle.
 
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sswann

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While Pitman's delivery of message might be a little strong, what he's saying is quite legitimate. I think it's fair to expect that a pre-pay (not pre-order) system should result in a product shipping within 30 days of money being taken.
Of course, you can personally guarantee that the printing will be 100% correct? If you cannot, then you should be grateful that Chas is so exacting so that we are getting excellent products.
 
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MrP

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Anyway. PTO. Yippee.

Looking forward to it, although it'll be a while before the coffers are full enough to buy it, pre-order or no.
 

Whizbang1963

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Anyway. PTO. Yippee.

Looking forward to it, although it'll be a while before the coffers are full enough to buy it, pre-order or no.
You have time to save up for it..we've not set a date yet and there is a ton of layout work to be done and final editing,etc. before we're ready to go to pre-order. :laugh:
 

Kevin Kenneally

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My thoughts on the topic:

BFP asked possible buyers to preorder by Paypal when they were certain that the counters would be produced correctly.

Well, reality issues happen (like the HOB counters being printed incorrectly; mistake on the printers part) and BFP gave NOTICE that they would be delayed on getting the product produced in a timely manner.

When BFP announces that they have a new product that may soon be available for pre-order, we (the customers) need to make the decision to pre-order or not.

If some wish to ask BFP to do something,


Quote:
Leaving that aside, I would like to request that BFP3 not be put up for pre-order until it is very nearly ready to be released. There was a lengthy delay with the last one, longer than I had anticipated. Thanks.



I politely ask you send them a personal letter to their website. When requesting a Company to change how they run a legitimate business in a public forum, you run the risk of alienating many factions over mis-understandings of their "interpretations" of the original "request".

If you wish to use the Paypal option to pre-order, just to save a few dollars, then use it with this company with the understanding that something may occur that could delay you from receiving your product in a timely manner.

If you choose NOT to use BFP's pre-order option, that is YOUR choice.

I believe/feel Chas Smith is a stand-up guy. BFP has produced some very good quality products.

So please make your own decision to use the BFP pre-order option. Some will, and other will not.





 

Kevin Kenneally

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I bullied you??? I made a polite and perfectly reasonable request about the handling of the pre-orders for your next product. You were the one who started slinging mud.
Mark,

You may be mistaken with your assumption.

I believe you were the one who "started slinging mud".

Example:


"I am sure that there are ASLers who don't mind this at all. There are some people who would still line up to buy ASL product if a pre-requisite of purchase was that they be *****-slapped by a burly man in a dress. But for me, if you are taking my money, you need to be sending me something pronto or I'm going to be pissed. "


Please take your adjust your comments to "specific" ASL people about being "B****-slapped".
 
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Psycho

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I 1) have a thick skin
:rolleyes: If only! How many times did we hear you complain about being personally attacked when someone just disagreed with you? And this after telling someone their opinion was wrong. :nada:

FWIW, Pitman's first point was seemingly innocent enough. Chas was a bit harsher in his reply but still not over the top. Pitman then goes into full attack mode on BFP (and possibly all TPPs). You might want to take note that Portal is siding with you. Never a good sign. :nada:
 

Michael Dorosh

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I posted in the other thread that I received the combined BFP2 and BtB product in Canada but never gave my opinion of it; I guess I can safely chime in that I was very pleased with the physical quality of the components and didn't mind waiting (I was one of the "preorders") since as an author I understand the delays sometimes inherent in the printing process that are often out of the control of the most well-meaning self-publishers.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Take note of Mark's carefully worded posting in his blog, by the way, and note the careful use of language.

There is a tiny third party ASL producer called "Bounding Fire Productions," one of the main persons behind which is Chas Smith. They announced some new products some months back and began accepting paypal "pre-orders" for them (because paypal charges immediately, it is not a real pre-order, like most actual companies do, but a pre-pay).
Childish. Absolutely childish. And he thinks he's being subtle and clever, but he's just being petty. Shame.
 

sswann

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Take note of Mark's carefully worded posting in his blog, by the way, and note the careful use of language.



Childish. Absolutely childish. And he thinks he's being subtle and clever, but he's just being petty. Shame.
I would say that is a normal childish reaction from someone who used to be so well respected in the ASL world. It is too bad that he has lowered his intellect to this level. I actually have to pity him... he just doesn't understand.
 
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