B23.83 Rooftop Location Not Building Location ...

[Spencer Armstrong]

I dont agree. You are stating (I think) that "the exception for rooftop units only applies to Building Control (B23.83, A26.14)". The exception in B23.83 does not only apply to building control. It applies to Victory Conditions, of which both Building Control AND Hex Control are a sub-set.

So the rooftop units must be ignored for both building control and hex control, according to our interpretation of B23.83. What am I missing on that point?

R

A26.14 is clearly labelled "Building Control" so it doesn't apply to Hex Control (treated immediately above in A26.13)

B23.83 says "A Rooftop Location is not considered a building Location for rout and Victory Condition purposes." I read that to mean (and wish it said): "A Rooftop Location is not a building Location for rout purposes (I might rephrase this if I wanted to parse the Rout rules...not the point here), nor is it considered part of a building for Control purposes." The introduction of the word "Location" is needlessly muddying, IMO. But it's excluding the Rooftop from being part of the Building, not from being part of the Hex (a logical impossibility, IMO).

I think the idea of "Building Hex" does nothing to help this conversation. A Building is a Building, a Hex is a Hex. There aren't "Building Hexes" that have some sort of different treatment from other Hexes as far as Hex Control goes.

S

 

[aslredbarricade]

A26.14 is clearly labelled "Building Control" so it doesn't apply to Hex Control (treated immediately above in A26.13)

B23.83 says "A Rooftop Location is not considered a building Location for rout and Victory Condition purposes." I read that to mean (and wish it said): "A Rooftop Location is not a building Location for rout purposes (I might rephrase this if I wanted to parse the Rout rules...not the point here), nor is it considered part of a building for Control purposes." The introduction of the word "Location" is needlessly muddying, IMO. But it's excluding the Rooftop from being part of the Building, not from being part of the Hex (a logical impossibility, IMO).

I think the idea of "Building Hex" does nothing to help this conversation. A Building is a Building, a Hex is a Hex. There aren't "Building Hexes" that have some sort of different treatment from other Hexes as far as Hex Control goes.

S

Fascinating. Yet B23.83 says "A Rooftop Location is not considered a building Location for rout and Victory Condition purposes." If it were changed to "A Rooftop Location is not a building Location for rout purposes, nor is it considered part of a building for Control purposes", it would allow the rooftop units to count toward victory calculations in scenarios such as Mayhem in Manilla (per my first post starting this discussion). That is probably why they used "Victory Condition Purposes" instead of "Building Control Purposes." I tend to agree with your desire to change it to Building Control Purposes. But that doesnt work, so we are left with an inconsistent application of the rule, IMO, the way you are using it.

I agree with you the rules need repair. Because you are basically saying that the Victory Control Purposes applies to one sub-set of A26 (namely building control), but not another subset of A26 (hex control).

I dont want to live with that…

I'd rather be what I think is more consistent and either allow for building control outside of Victory Condition Purposes (I'm a broken record on that), or at least apply the B23.83 rooftop rule to ALL subsets of Victory Conditions.

Still need other helpful opinions!


Randy

 

[aslredbarricade]

Or, in other words:

What problems does it create to say that a ground level unit Controls the hex it is in, regardless of the presence of Rooftop units? That, at least, treats all sub-sets of Victory Conditions equally and consistently with respect to B23.83, as written.

Randy

 

[Eremite]

I agree with you the rules need repair. Because you are basically saying that the Victory Control Purposes applies to one sub-set of A26 (namely building control), but not another subset of A26 (hex control).

That's not true .. the exception is that a rooftop is not a building location for VC purposes. Its not a matter of the exception applying to only part of the Victory Condition purposes. Its that the victory condition purposes, i.e. control schemes, are not parallel and thus the rooftop's status as a building location matters sometimes, doesn't matter in others.

Rooftop is not building location ....

Makes BIG difference in determining building control ... you can control the building with the enemy on the roof.

Makes no difference in determining hex control ... rooftop units can still contest hex control, i.e. prevent opponent from gaining control of the hex.

Makes no difference in determining location control ... you either got control of the rooftop location or you don't .

Makes a difference *if* the VC specify building location control ... as per above.

It's not that it "applies" to some and not to others .. its that it "matters" to some and not to others. There's a big difference there.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Fascinating. Yet B23.83 says "A Rooftop Location is not considered a building Location for rout and Victory Condition purposes." If it were changed to "A Rooftop Location is not a building Location for rout purposes, nor is it considered part of a building for Control purposes", it would allow the rooftop units to count toward victory calculations in scenarios such as Mayhem in Manilla (per my first post starting this discussion). That is probably why they used "Victory Condition Purposes" instead of "Building Control Purposes." I tend to agree with your desire to change it to Building Control Purposes. But that doesnt work, so we are left with an inconsistent application of the rule, IMO, the way you are using it.

That was careless of me, actually. I used Control, VC would have been better. I did not intend a change. This is the problem when you start re-writing quickly.

I agree with you the rules need repair.

I have not said that, nor do I believe it. On the contrary, the more this thread has gone on, the more convinced I am the rules work exactly as intended in this case.

Because you are basically saying that the Victory Control Purposes applies to one sub-set of A26 (namely building control), but not another subset of A26 (hex control).

I don't think I am.

I'd rather be what I think is more consistent and either allow for building control outside of Victory Condition Purposes (I'm a broken record on that), or at least apply the B23.83 rooftop rule to ALL subsets of Victory Conditions.

Still need other helpful opinions!

Randy

I believe introducing multiple definitions of Control would be far worse than any discomfort created by the current Control rules.

Or, in other words:

What problems does it create to say that a ground level unit Controls the hex it is in, regardless of the presence of Rooftop units? That, at least, treats all sub-sets of Victory Conditions equally and consistently with respect to B23.83, as written.

Randy

Not really. You're talking about allowing gaining Control of something (a Hex) that contains armed enemy units. Control in spite of enemy presence would be a totally new idea. I can only imagine the myriad problems it might create.

S

 

[aslredbarricade]

That's not true .. the exception is that a rooftop is not a building location for VC purposes. Its not a matter of the exception applying to only part of the Victory Condition purposes. Its that the victory condition purposes, i.e. control schemes, are not parallel and thus the rooftop's status as a building location matters sometimes, doesn't matter in others.

Rooftop is not building location ….


Hi, I appreciate your thoughts, and would like to know your reasoning behind them, if you care to share it.

Makes BIG difference in determining building control ... you can control the building with the enemy on the roof.
Why? Because Building Control is a sub-set of Victory Conditions? And rooftops are not considered building locations within a hex for Victory Condition Purposes? Okay I agree.


Makes no difference in determining hex control ... rooftop units can still contest hex control, i.e. prevent opponent from gaining control of the hex.
Why? Where do the rules state that rooftop units can still contest hex control, but not contest building control? What gives us the right to consider rooftop units when determining hex control and not when determining building control? I would say, rather, that because Hex Control is a sub-set of Victory Conditions, and rooftops are not considered building locations within a hex for Victory Condition Purposes, therefore rooftop units are not to be considered in control of a hex, because Control of a Hex is also a subset of Victory Conditions. How are you getting around that?

Makes no difference in determining location control ... you either got control of the rooftop location or you don't .
Agreed

Makes a difference *if* the VC specify building location control ... as per above.

It's not that it "applies" to some and not to others .. its that it "matters" to some and not to others. There's a big difference there.

It matters to some and not to others. I am trying to understand what this means.
The presence of the squad on the roof matters to building control, but building control is part of Victory Conditions, so rooftop units are excepted.
The presence of the squad on the roof matters to hex control, but hex control is part of Victory Conditions, so rooftop units are excepted.
It seems the argument that it "matters" or "applies" in one case and not the other is completely arbitrary the way it is being presented.
How does the rulebook support that rooftop units "matter" for hex control?
We cannot say they are a presence for one rule and not the other. They are in the same place, rooftop location, and the control rule that matters seems to be A26.11, in both cases, regarding denying control by their presence. I cannot find the rule that denies their presence in the one case (building control) but supports their presence in the other (hex control).

Bring light to my darkness!

Randy

 

[aslredbarricade]

That was careless of me, actually. I used Control, VC would have been better. I did not intend a change. This is the problem when you start re-writing quickly.



I have not said that, nor do I believe it. On the contrary, the more this thread has gone on, the more convinced I am the rules work exactly as intended in this case.



I don't think I am.



I believe introducing multiple definitions of Control would be far worse than any discomfort created by the current Control rules.



Not really. You're talking about allowing gaining Control of something (a Hex) that contains armed enemy units. Control in spite of enemy presence would be a totally new idea. I can only imagine the myriad problems it might create.

S

Spencer,

I didnt intend to suggest that you thought the rules need repair. Sorry to assume that. I only think the rooftop rules need repair if this thread ends with us arbitrarily applying the B23.83 rule to one form of control and not another, without supporting rules. That would indicate a need for repair, IMO.

I find an inconsistency in your application of B23.83 to building control but not to hex control. I just cannot find the rule that supports the counting rooftop units in the one case and not the other. I believe you have suggested that B23.83 is your reasoning for rooftop units not counting toward building control. I cannot see why you do not also use B23.83 to reason that rooftop units do not count toward hex control.

It is not discomfort with the Control rules that I feel. It is confusion. I have not heard a consistent application of rooftop exclusion to the various control rules.

We control buildings with hexes that contain armed enemy units (on the roof), so why not control a simple hex that contains armed enemy units (on the roof)? I dont think that would necessarily create a myriad of problems.

It seems simple and consistent, and is how the rules seem to interpret, to me, as written.

I find these discussions very helpful, and you have all been very courteous to me and for that I am thankful.

Randy

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Spencer,

I didnt intend to suggest that you thought the rules need repair. Sorry to assume that. I only think the rooftop rules need repair if this thread ends with us arbitrarily applying the B23.83 rule to one form of control and not another, without supporting rules. That would indicate a need for repair, IMO.

I find an inconsistency in your application of B23.83 to building control but not to hex control. I just cannot find the rule that supports the counting rooftop units in the one case and not the other. I believe you have suggested that B23.83 is your reasoning for rooftop units not counting toward building control. I cannot see why you do not also use B23.83 to reason that rooftop units do not count toward hex control.

It is not discomfort with the Control rules that I feel. It is confusion. I have not heard a consistent application of rooftop exclusion to the various control rules.

We control buildings with hexes that contain armed enemy units (on the roof), so why not control a simple hex that contains armed enemy units (on the roof)? I dont think that would necessarily create a myriad of problems.

It seems simple and consistent, and is how the rules seem to interpret, to me, as written.

I find these discussions very helpful, and you have all been very courteous to me and for that I am thankful.

Randy

The difference between Building and Hex Control with regards to Rooftop units I explained about as well as I know how to in Post 61 above, but I'll try again.

Basically, it comes down to this: Rooftop units are not IN the building, but they are still IN the hex. This is what the end of B23.83 is saying when it says "not considered a building Location for...Victory Condition purposes."

So it's not a "building Location" (i.e. not part of the Building) but it's still part of the Hex. That's the difference.

S

 

[Eremite]

Randy,

I think you are skipping over the content of the rooftop exception when you say things like "rooftop units are excepted." The exception is not that rooftop units don't matter. Its that the rooftop location is not a building location.

Think of the control schemes - hex, location, and building as a set of equations. The idea of a "building location" is used in *some* of those control equations but not in others. The practical outcome is the presence of rooftop units can matter depending on the specific victory conditions or the type of control that is required (in the case of VSEs).

The basis of all control schemes is the presence of a good order unit and the absence of an enemy unit.

Hex control equation - is gained by having an MMC at the ground level of the hex (A26.13) and the absence of enemy unit (A26.11)
Location Control - Gained by presence of an MMC and abscencce of enemy unit (A26.11)
Building Control - Gained by presence of Good Order MMC in any hex of the building (Rooftops specifically excluded from this phrase) (A26.14) and absence of enemy (A26.11)
Pillbox Control - Gained by control of both the Pillbox location and Control of the Hex
Bridge Hex Control - Presence of MMC in either the bridge location or depression location .. and absence of enemy, etc.


The inconsistency in language is due no doubt to inconsistent redaction and editing. A full redaction analysis would uncover things. Interestingly, the phrase "building location" does not occur in the Victory Conditions section at all.

I think the specific exception in B23.8 is a repetition of the specific exclusion of rooftops in A26.14 ... but its an inconsistent repetition because it uses slightly different langauge. A26.14 says "hex of a building (excluding rooftops and subterranean)", B23.8 says "building location"

But even with this difference in phraseology, the meaning is clear.

As I said earlier, if inconsistency over the effect of the presence of rooftop units - i.e. they don't matter when it comes to building control but they do "matter" for the purposes of determining the movement benefit of VSEs .. that is best resolved by amending B23.742 and not tinkering with the control schemes.

The vast majority of scenarios are dependent on the definitions of control for their victory conditions. Changing them even a tiny bit could unbalance or otherwise break many many scenarios.

On the other hand, amending B23.742 to allow VSE MP benefits for the side that controls the "location" (as opposed to "hex") would have a truly minor effect. Though there are arguments to be made that the presence of the enemy on a factory roof rightly makes the use of the VSE more difficult.

But in the end that is an argument over the VSE rules and not one about either the rooftop exception of B23.8 or the control schemes of A26.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

<snip>

Think of the control schemes - hex, location, and building as a set of equations. The idea of a "building location" is used in *some* of those control equations but not in others. The practical outcome is the presence of rooftop units can matter depending on the specific victory conditions or the type of control that is required (in the case of VSEs).

The basis of all control schemes is the presence of a good order unit and the absence of an enemy unit.

<snip>

The inconsistency in language is due no doubt to inconsistent redaction and editing. A full redaction analysis would uncover things. Interestingly, the phrase "building location" does not occur in the Victory Conditions section at all.

<snip>

Nice explanation, Corey. Equation-Very different angle than I came at it from.

"building Location" is an unhelpful phrase that only causes confusion a la "building hex," IMO.

S

 

[aslredbarricade]

The difference between Building and Hex Control with regards to Rooftop units I explained about as well as I know how to in Post 61 above, but I'll try again.

Basically, it comes down to this: Rooftop units are not IN the building, but they are still IN the hex. This is what the end of B23.83 is saying when it says "not considered a building Location for...Victory Condition purposes."

So it's not a "building Location" (i.e. not part of the Building) but it's still part of the Hex. That's the difference.

S

I understand. Let the light shine on me!

B23.83 does not say "Rooftop locations are not part of a hex for victory condition purposes."

Therefore rooftop locations are still part of the hex for victory condition purposes. And all other purposes.

Rooftop locations are not building locations for victory condition purposes, but rooftop locations do count for all other victory condition purposes, except that they are not building locations for victory condition purposes.

I'm very happy, basking in this wonderful light

I want to tell the world my news.

Thanks for hanging with me. There is not inconsistency there. No headaches. Ahhh.

Randy

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I understand. Let the light shine on me!

B23.83 does not say "Rooftop locations are not part of a hex for victory condition purposes."

Therefore rooftop locations are still part of the hex for victory condition purposes. And all other purposes.

Rooftop locations are not building locations for victory condition purposes, but rooftop locations do count for all other victory condition purposes, except that they are not building locations for victory condition purposes.

I'm very happy, basking in this wonderful light

I want to tell the world my news.

Thanks for hanging with me. There is not inconsistency there. No headaches. Ahhh.

Randy

:coolban: :toast: :clap:

Glad to help. Seriously.

I have to say, I have a way better handle on Control than I did two days ago, too.

S

 

[Eremite]

LOL .. I was typing that exact same thing, Spencer!

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

LOL .. I was typing that exact same thing, Spencer!

And here I thought you'd mastered Control "the hard way."

S

 

[aslredbarricade]

Randy,

I think you are skipping over the content of the rooftop exception when you say things like "rooftop units are excepted." The exception is not that rooftop units don't matter. Its that the rooftop location is not a building location.

Think of the control schemes - hex, location, and building as a set of equations. The idea of a "building location" is used in *some* of those control equations but not in others. The practical outcome is the presence of rooftop units can matter depending on the specific victory conditions or the type of control that is required (in the case of VSEs).

The basis of all control schemes is the presence of a good order unit and the absence of an enemy unit.

Hex control equation - is gained by having an MMC at the ground level of the hex (A26.13) and the absence of enemy unit (A26.11)
Location Control - Gained by presence of an MMC and abscencce of enemy unit (A26.11)
Building Control - Gained by presence of Good Order MMC in any hex of the building (Rooftops specifically excluded from this phrase) (A26.14) and absence of enemy (A26.11)
Pillbox Control - Gained by control of both the Pillbox location and Control of the Hex
Bridge Hex Control - Presence of MMC in either the bridge location or depression location .. and absence of enemy, etc.


The inconsistency in language is due no doubt to inconsistent redaction and editing. A full redaction analysis would uncover things. Interestingly, the phrase "building location" does not occur in the Victory Conditions section at all.

I think the specific exception in B23.8 is a repetition of the specific exclusion of rooftops in A26.14 ... but its an inconsistent repetition because it uses slightly different langauge. A26.14 says "hex of a building (excluding rooftops and subterranean)", B23.8 says "building location"

But even with this difference in phraseology, the meaning is clear.

As I said earlier, if inconsistency over the effect of the presence of rooftop units - i.e. they don't matter when it comes to building control but they do "matter" for the purposes of determining the movement benefit of VSEs .. that is best resolved by amending B23.742 and not tinkering with the control schemes.

The vast majority of scenarios are dependent on the definitions of control for their victory conditions. Changing them even a tiny bit could unbalance or otherwise break many many scenarios.

On the other hand, amending B23.742 to allow VSE MP benefits for the side that controls the "location" (as opposed to "hex") would have a truly minor effect. Though there are arguments to be made that the presence of the enemy on a factory roof rightly makes the use of the VSE more difficult.

But in the end that is an argument over the VSE rules and not one about either the rooftop exception of B23.8 or the control schemes of A26.

That was erudite.

Thanks for taking the time to make clear not just building control, but other specific control issues.

I am always amazed at the spectrum of people who play this game.

I have recently spent a week in Maine, and found the company of Ted and Keith very pleasant (hey no laughing out there!). Got in two games while up there.
I have recently spent a week in Viginia Beach, and found the ASL community down there very pleasant as well. Got in two games while there.

I am going to ASLOK this year for my first time! I'm going to love it, and maybe get to meet some of you FTF.

Randy

 

[Eremite]

Ouch!

Hehe .. believe me, I'll never look at the phrase "building location" so lightly again.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I have recently spent a week in Maine, and found the company of Ted and Keith very pleasant (hey no laughing out there!). Got in two games while up there.

I did laugh, but only once you said not to.

I am going to ASLOK this year for my first time! I'm going to love it, and maybe get to meet some of you FTF.

Randy

I'll be there. I look forward to meeting you (at least).

Welcome to GS, BTW...

S

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Ouch!

Hehe .. believe me, I'll never look at the phrase "building location" so lightly again.

:laugh:

Apologies to others for inside joke.

S

 

[Khill]

so, if the Russians wipeout all Germans in the factory but there are a bunch of Germans on the roof tops: the Russians still control the factory

 

[aslredbarricade]

Right on Keith! The Russians would Control the Factory Building...

But the Russians do not control the hexes containing Germans on the rooftop. LOL Go ponder that for a while.

However, if the Russians follow the Germans up the stairwells onto the rooftop, instead of clearing the last three ground level hexes containing Germans, the Germans still control the factory. The SS 8-0 is on the roof taunting "up here, Russe, up here, ya dumb Russe!"

Gotta LOVE this game.