B23.83 Rooftop Location Not Building Location ...

[Spencer Armstrong]

Fellow ASLers,

What I cannot understand is how these arguments write off rooftop units for building control purposes, but don't write off rooftop units for hex control purposes?

That makes no sense, and has no consistency in my mind.

Either the Control rules are a subset of the Victory Conditions, or they are not. I don't see how we can use that language when speaking of building control, and not also apply it to hex control?

I'm interested in how to play the game. I had been playing that rooftop units deny building control, and therefore if the Victory Conditions require one side to control the building, that side must also clear the roof. That is how the rules read to me (the 'for victory condition purposes' rooftop clause being too vague for my tastes). But I have changed that position since more experienced gamers say otherwise.

It is clear that some people of experience in this forum have spoken that this is not the case, that rooftop units are irrelevant to building control, "because building control is a subset of Victory Conditions". (Spencer and Bret)

But hex control is also a subset of Victory Conditions, so what Klas is suggesting about hex control seems in opposition to what has been shared regarding Building Control.

Anyone have some clear answers for clarity and consistency?

Help

Randy

Go back to what Bret said: They're ON the building, not in it. They're still IN the hex. Thus, building control: no, hex control: yes.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

I'm curious, was the "/" defined in 1st Ed. Index?

Yes it was (page 12). It was "and/or" there too. -- jim

 

[jwb3]

[Edit: First part of message deleted as being inaccurate, as was being demonstrated in cross-posting even as I wrote it! :shy:]

I ended up looking up "virgule usage" in Google and came up with the following interesting quote at http://www.adamsdrafting.com/2007/10/25/virgule/:

Here’s what Garner’s Modern American Usage has to say:

Some writers use [the virgule] to mean “per” (50 words/minute). Others use it to mean “or” (and/or) or “and” (every employee/independent contractor must complete form XJ42A). Still others use it to indicate a vague disjunction, in which it’s not quite an or (the novel/novella distinction). In this last use, the en-dash is usually a better choice. In all these uses, there’s almost always a better choice than the virgule. Use it as a last resort.
​

So the virgule is profoundly unclear. To that I’d add that if you want a given virgule to mean "and" or "or", you’d have to take into account the rat’s nest that is the ambiguity associated with "and" and "or".

It turns out that the part in bold is actually a link to an entire .pdf about "and" and "or"! (Which I do not claim to have read -- or checked for Adobe exploits.)

[Edit: Third part deleted as it was just a layman trying to explain "mapping". :shy:]

[Edit: Fourth part deleted as uninformed opinion! :blab:]



John :crosseye:

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Yes it was (page 12). It was "and/or" there too. -- jim

Rats. Thanks.

S

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I am not aware of anything in the ASLRB that states that the use of the virgule always equals "and/or". That's just something that we tell ourselves in our feeble attempts to wrangle some consistency out of the the damn book.

It is so defined in the Index.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

Go back to what Bret said: They're ON the building, not in it. They're still IN the hex. Thus, building control: no, hex control: yes.

S

I disagree. If you parse the sentence such that you don't get "hex control" then the same parsing has to be applied to building control. You can't have it both ways. The unit is still in the hex. If it denies hex control because it is in a Location other than the ground level (that which you must control to control a hex) then it is also in a Location in the hex which would deny Building control. You want to read this "I control a building if I am in the Location and no other unit is in the building" ignoring the rest of the "/" separated arguments but at the same time read all of those separated arguments as "and" in the instance of hex control. It has to be one way or the other. IMO, controlling the ground Location controls the hex. Anything else breaks all the other control control rules. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I disagree. If you parse the sentence such that you don't get "hex control" then the same parsing has to be applied to building control. You can't have it both ways. The unit is still in the hex. If it denies hex control because it is in a Location other than the ground level (that which you must control to control a hex) then it is also in a Location in the hex which would deny Building control. You want to read this "I control a building if I am in the Location and no other unit is in the building" ignoring the rest of the "/" separated arguments but at the same time read all of those separated arguments as "and" in the instance of hex control. It has to be one way or the other. IMO, controlling the ground Location controls the hex. Anything else breaks all the other control control rules. -- jim

There is a specific exception for Building Control in B23.83, there is no such exception for Hex Control. Am I missing something?

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

There is a specific exception for Building Control in B23.83, there is no such exception for Hex Control. Am I missing something?

S

No, my example was bad. Go back to the Location control scenario where the VC says side A wins by controlling more Locations in building X than side B. If that is a multi-hex building with stairwells, your parsing would have me deny you control of any Location in the hex by occupying any one Location in that hex. If being in the second level denies control of the ground level Location for hex control purposes, how could you gain control of a Building Location simply by entering it unopposed? There is only one Location after all. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

No, my example was bad. Go back to the Location control scenario where the VC says side A wins by controlling more Locations in building X than side B. If that is a multi-hex building with stairwells, your parsing would have me deny you control of any Location in the hex by occupying any one Location in that hex. If being in the second level denies control of the ground level Location for hex control purposes, how could you gain control of a Building Location simply by entering it unopposed? There is only one Location after all. -- jim

I have apparently not explained "my parsing" well.

Locations/Hexes/Buildings are all controlled separately. Your statement "denies control of the ground level Location for hex control purposes..." is meaningless, IMO, since Locations have nothing to do with Hex control and vice versa.

1) You control a Location by having a GO MMC in the Location w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Location.

2) You control a Building by having a GO MMC in the Building w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Building.

3) You control a Hex by having a GO MMC in the Hex w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Hex. (EDIT: Note per A26.13 the controlling MMC has to be at ground level for Hex Control, thanks Jim)

These are independent concepts. This is what I took your "mapping" paradigm to mean.

In the instance of Rooftops, they

1) cannot deny control of the GL Location since they're a separate Location.

2) cannot deny control of the Building because B23.83 says they can't,

3) can deny control of the Hex because they're in the same Hex.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

I have apparently not explained "my parsing" well.

Locations/Hexes/Buildings are all controlled separately. Your statement "denies control of the ground level Location for hex control purposes..." is meaningless, IMO, since Locations have nothing to do with Hex control and vice versa.

1) You control a Location by having a GO MMC in the Location w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Location.

2) You control a Building by having a GO MMC in the Building w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Building.

3) You control a Hex by having a GO MMC in the Hex w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Hex.

These are independent concepts. This is what I took your "mapping" paradigm to mean.

In the instance of Rooftops, they

1) cannot deny control of the GL Location since they're a separate Location.

2) cannot deny control of the Building because B23.83 says they can't,

3) can deny control of the Hex because they're in the same Hex.

S

I could live with this interpretation. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I could live with this interpretation. -- jim

<faints>

Is there another that's playable? (100% serious question)

S

 

[jwb3]

Yes, but at this point the thread is moving so fast I'm almost afraid to start typing it!

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Yes, but at this point the thread is moving so fast I'm almost afraid to start typing it!

Knock yourself out. I'll wait.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

<faints>

Is there another that's playable? (100% serious question)

S

My only concern is the hex control. Only a unit at the ground level can gain it but a unit at any level could deny it. I don't like this a whole lot. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

My only concern is the hex control. Only a unit at the ground level can gain it but a unit at any level could deny it. I don't like this a whole lot. -- jim

OK. Doesn't bother me, but I agree it seems inconsistent. OTOH, so does everything about Rooftops.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

OK. Doesn't bother me, but I agree it seems inconsistent. OTOH, so does everything about Rooftops.

S

Roof tops won't matter. A unit on the 10th floor denies me access to a Factory entrance at the Open Ground rate. They can't open the doors nor do the have LOS but they most certainly have the remote to the garage door opener and the door won't work without it. Maybe the problem is with the VSE rules. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Roof tops won't matter. A unit on the 10th floor denies me access to a Factory entrance at the Open Ground rate. They can't open the doors nor do the have LOS but they most certainly have the remote to the garage door opener and the door won't work without it. Maybe the problem is with the VSE rules. -- jim

Oh, yeah. Missed that ramification. Well, there's no 10th floor on factories, is there? Just 1.5 or 2.5 level (and I realize level >< floor, yes) and somebody up on the roof who can drop grenades/molotoves/large rocks does seem reasonable to prevent "free" entry. I bet that's the thinking at least.

S

 

[Sparafucil3]

Oh, yeah. Missed that ramification. Well, there's no 10th floor on factories, is there? Just 1.5 or 2.5 level (and I realize level >< floor, yes) and somebody up on the roof who can drop grenades/molotoves/large rocks does seem reasonable to prevent "free" entry. I bet that's the thinking at least.

S

OK, but if you are inside the building and looking to get out, you have to drive through a wall to get out too. I guess those weapons come with a phase transition device to pass through the roof and all the obstacles to find their targets. Surprised they don't get street fighting to go with it. -- jim

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

OK, but if you are inside the building and looking to get out, you have to drive through a wall to get out too. I guess those weapons come with a phase transition device to pass through the roof and all the obstacles to find their targets. Surprised they don't get street fighting to go with it. -- jim

Well, if you're there and your opponent controls the Hex, that's true. But if you got there, odds are you control the Hex (or you had to crash in as well). <shrug> This doesn't fuss me particularly.

S

 

[Fred Ingram]

2) You control a Building by having a GO MMC in the Building w/o any enemy armed unit also being in the Building.

A major difference between building control and he/location control is that you HOLD building control once you obtain it until the conditions are such that control is gained by the other side.

So once you gain control of a building, it does not matter if other enemy units subsequently enter the building.

You still control it until you leave it totally and thus pass control to the other side.