Assaulted in the Bocage country: Like it or Hate Bocage.

[Martin Mayers]

I don't know if I agree "many" don't know, but I have seen this misplayed.


The problem for the defender is usually mobility. The defenders lack of mobility makes it easy to flank them. This is a little harder if the attack is along the length of the board.

How does a defender lack mobility any more than an attacker does? Attackers aren't given special MF bonuses or any such thing and given that most defences involve an element of falling back I'm perplexed. I've always found defending to be far more "agile" than attacking bocage in most manners of sense.

I absolutely agree that guns (and defending tanks to a similar extent) are extremely vulnerable to being outflanked behind bocage. But that's something you soon learn about when playing it

And also (musing) if I'm being hyper-critical, I don't think the bocage rules are anywhere near restrictive enough on AFVs (design for effect mebbe).

 

[Sparafucil3]

How does a defender lack mobility any more than an attacker does? Attackers aren't given special MF bonuses or any such thing and given that most defences involve an element of falling back I'm perplexed. I've always found defending to be far more "agile" than attacking bocage in most manners of sense.

I absolutely agree that guns (and defending tanks to a similar extent) are extremely vulnerable to being outflanked behind bocage. But that's something you soon learn about when playing it

And also (musing) if I'm being hyper-critical, I don't think the bocage rules are anywhere near restrictive enough on AFVs (design for effect mebbe).

The attacker picks the point of the attack and develops a local superiority. He sets up small flankers to interdict defenders trying to rally to the attack. Personally, I never look at a bocage scenario and think to myself "man, that's going to be a bitch to attack across."

I am I agree with your point on AFV. I also think the whole "appearing AFV" is BS. For example, A Sherman is backup up a line of American units along a hedgerow. A Panther pulls up to the hedgerow. The Americans, being there first, have WA. As such, the Sherman can't see the Panther. No shot. No Motion dr. The Panther shoots the American with MGs and breaks the American unit along the hedgerow. Being broken, he loses WA. Being adjacent, the Panther gains it and looky there! A Sherman appears and gets attacked by the Panther the Sherman could never see. Assuming the Sherman isn't eliminated in AFPh (10 +4 TH most likely), I guess the American player is hoping for the 1,1 in Prep Fire or the Malfunction in D1F. A decent sM8 could help some, but that's still going to be a hit on an 9 with ACQ and large target.

 

[Tuomo]

I agree with your point on AFV. I also think the whole "appearing AFV" is BS. For example, A Sherman is backup up a line of American units along a hedgerow. A Panther pulls up to the hedgerow. The Americans, being there first, have WA. As such, the Sherman can't see the Panther. No shot. No Motion dr. The Panther shoots the American with MGs and breaks the American unit along the hedgerow. Being broken, he loses WA. Being adjacent, the Panther gains it and looky there! A Sherman appears and gets attacked by the Panther the Sherman could never see. (Etc)

And this is why I don't like playing Bocage. Much like the <technobabble> that appears in various places in our lives, this <rules babble> is just a step beyond my Level of Want To, and has the predictable result of hurting my enjoyment.

My own fault, I guess, but I sure ain't apologing for it.

At least with Night rules, everything is so different that you wouldn't even be there if you weren't up for it. Here, Bocage Babble pops out of nowhere in an otherwise normal game. Shrug.

 

[DonWPetros]

I think the Normandy/bocage fights are cool - they give the players a very unique battlefield that they don't have elsewhere. Plus, there's so many narratives available for this that the design can keep coming.

 

[Blaze]

1. Do you play Bocage scenarios? YES!
2. Do you enjoy Bocage scenarios? YES!
3. If given a choice of playing a Bocage scenario or a non-Bocage scenario which do you choose? My Legal Counsel advised me not to answer.
4. Would you rather play a Bocage scenario or have your feet swatted by an enemy interrogator? My marriage counselor advised me not to answer.
5. Do your ASL buddies have to hold you at gun point to get you to play Bocage? If they do, then they will have a hard time hitting me as I can move and maintain concealment (Such a unit is treated as out of all enemy LOS for “?” loss purposes during the RPh and loses “?” during its MPh as if using Assault Movement)
   
   
6. Would you like to see the Bocage section of every ASLRB ripped out and burned in the street? My Parole Officer advised me not to answer. (I refer you to my nickname)

 

[Vic Provost]

I know a crusty old guy who was assaulted in the bocage country. I mean assaulted!
He won’t play bocage.

1. Do you play Bocage scenarios?
2. Do you enjoy Bocage scenarios?
3. If given a choice of playing a Bocage scenario or a non-Bocage scenario which do you choose?
4. Would you rather play a Bocage scenario or have your feet swatted by an enemy interrogator?
5. Do your ASL buddies have to hold you at gun point to get you to play Bocage?
6. Would you like to see the Bocage section of every ASLRB ripped out and burned in the street?

Bocage does not scare me, but I do not go out of my way to play a scenario featuring it. But if in a new MMP product or one of my friends wants to do one I am up for it. So Yes, I do play them, I like them when I do IF it is a good and balanced scenario. Bocage is secondary to that.

 

[pensatl1962]

I know a crusty old guy who was assaulted in the bocage country. I mean assaulted!
He won’t play bocage.

1. Do you play Bocage scenarios?
2. Do you enjoy Bocage scenarios?
3. If given a choice of playing a Bocage scenario or a non-Bocage scenario which do you choose?
4. Would you rather play a Bocage scenario or have your feet swatted by an enemy interrogator?
5. Do your ASL buddies have to hold you at gun point to get you to play Bocage?
6. Would you like to see the Bocage section of every ASLRB ripped out and burned in the street?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Either
4. Bocage - the other option reminds me of SERE school, which I do NOT want to repeat.
5. Not usually, but they are amenable to playing bocage.
6. Nope. I actually enjoy bocage as it’s something different from the usual stuff. I agree with the comment someone made earlier that’s (for me) it’s best to play bocage scenarios in batches.

 

[Bob M]

1. Do you play Bocage scenarios?
2. Do you enjoy Bocage scenarios?
3. If given a choice of playing a Bocage scenario or a non-Bocage scenario which do you choose?
4. Would you rather play a Bocage scenario or have your feet swatted by an enemy interrogator?
5. Do your ASL buddies have to hold you at gun point to get you to play Bocage?
6. Would you like to see the Bocage section of every ASLRB ripped out and burned in the street?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Bocage - Normandy
4. Bocage - Airborne
5. No.
6. No. Burn the enemy in the Bocage.

 

[zcrater]

Do you play Bocage scenarios? Yes

Do you enjoy Bocage scenarios? Yes, although less than non-Bocage scenarios

If given a choice of playing a Bocage scenario or a non-Bocage scenario which do you choose? non-Bocage every time. While there are probably exceptions, Bocage means a few weeks of summer 1944 fighting between USA / Commonwealth and Germans in one little area of the globe. To me, Bocage is a lot of extra rules for a small slice of terrain over a small amount of time of the war.

Do your ASL buddies have to hold you at gun point to get you to play Bocage? My regular opponent likes Normandy scenarios so we play more Bocage than one would expect versus picking one of the 2000+ ASL scenarios at random. In his defense, we also play a lot more PTO and early war scenarios that I favor versus such scenarios' prevalence.

Would you like to see the Bocage section of every ASLRB ripped out and burned in the street? I am delighted if my ASL comrades want to play Bocage and am equally delighted that the Bocage rules exist in all the ASLRBs. Even if I hated Bocage I would not deny my ASL comrades their joy just as I hope they would not rip out and burn Panjis, Landing Craft, and Caves from the ASLRB.

Zeke

 

[wrongway149]

I have grown to enjoy bocage scenarios -and mostly because it emphasizes the infantry tactics ASL excels at.

But I do agree with Jim --defending units should be able to move quickly. Do we just say 'Germans' pay 1 +COT vs 2 (even when they are counterattacking?')

 

[wrongway149]

I think the Normandy/bocage fights are cool - they give the players a very unique battlefield that they don't have elsewhere. Plus, there's so many narratives available for this that the design can keep coming.

Normandy may the most well-documented 3-month campaign of the war.

 

[DonWPetros]

I've wanted to use something like this to depict the narrow cart-paths in Normandy. It's a stretch, but possible?

 

[Actionjick]

Enjoyed Hedgerow Hell but liked DASL in general.

While a small slice of WWII it was a very significant slice.

 

[synicbast]

View attachment 34977
I've wanted to use something like this to depict the narrow cart-paths in Normandy. It's a stretch, but possible?

That's how I feel most of the actual roads within Bocage country should be depicted rather than the pseudo-boulevardes we now see.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

• View attachment 34977

I've wanted to use something like this to depict the narrow cart-paths in Normandy. It's a stretch, but possible?

Great idea. Now the rules of how to play.

Narrow Street for vehicles is the easy one.
How to treat personnel?
Can they be in the road, a special kind of bypass with wall advantage on both sides? New information counter. Bocage Bypass? Bocage Narrow Road?
If in the road then cannot be in a hex. LOS to Hexside, not to center dot.
Movement between two hexes requires crossing 2 bocage hexsides. S5 to S4 = 6mp (2+COT)+(2+COT).
Do they occupy only one hexside or two adjacent hexsides?

 

[DonWPetros]

That's how I feel most of the actual roads within Bocage country should be depicted rather than the pseudo-boulevardes we now see.

The bocage was much denser than what has been shown so far with our geoboards. It was always difficult to really portray bocage with the existing 40m hexes and roadways. But there have been many types of fixes to the original terrain rules (ie. Narrow Streets) and you'd think there would also be a way to incorporate some new bocage rules too.

 

[synicbast]

The bocage was much denser than what has been shown so far with our geoboards. It was always difficult to really portray bocage with the existing 40m hexes and roadways. But there have been many types of fixes to the original terrain rules (ie. Narrow Streets) and you'd think there would also be a way to incorporate some new bocage rules too.

There's also the intersting feature of the actual fields contained by the boacge hedgerow. The roads are not really sunken per se, it's just that the fields can have significantly increased in elevation relative to the roads, so the Bocage hedge may actually be not as tall for someone on the field side compared to someone in the road. I've wondered about SSRing that infantry crossing the Bocage from the Road side of the boacge pay the boacge cost, while infantry going the other way only pay hedge costs.

 

[DonWPetros]

Great idea. Now the rules of how to play.

Narrow Street for vehicles is the easy one.
How to treat personnel?
Can they be in the road, a special kind of bypass with wall advantage on both sides? New information counter. Bocage Bypass? Bocage Narrow Road?
If in the road then cannot be in a hex. LOS to Hexside, not to center dot.
Movement between two hexes requires crossing 2 bocage hexsides. S5 to S4 = 6mp (2+COT)+(2+COT).
Do they occupy only one hexside or two adjacent hexsides?

We're spit-balling here but..

Bocage Vertex (BV): the point were 3 bocage hedges meet (EX: T1/T2/U2 and Q3/R2/R3, etc.) Separate location, adjacent to 3 adjoining ground level hexes. Can be occupied by 1 MMC (and SMC/SW) or Gun (NA Lg Target type). Cost of 2 MP to gain access to from adjacent hex. Cost of 1 MP to gain access to Infantry (only) from adjacent hexside(s). +2 TEM. OBA, Resid fire and Smoke: If 2 or more adjacent hexes are affected, so is the BV.

Cart Path (CP): the hexside between 2 narrow bocage hexes. Can only be accessed by 1 MMC (and SMC/SW) from adjacent hex or BV. Cost of 2 MP over bocage (1 MP if gap) to enter into. May not remain in bypass along CP.

Narrow Road (NR): the road between 2 narrow bocage hexes. Use of Narrow Street Rules (B31.1) and: AFVs use Bocage rules for Movement through/over, and for WA.

 

[Martin Mayers]

Indy and I visited Normandy a few years back and we both reached the immediate conclusion that normal AFVs could not drive through it. It'd just be impossible (and impassable). Like, before you even reach the bocage, there was a trench on the road-side of the hedgerow that was about ten foot deep and wide minimum. I think a lot of photographs/depictions of "bocage" are actually just Normandy hedge-row. The bocage we saw was astonishing.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

We're spit-balling here but..

Bocage Vertex (BV): the point were 3 bocage hedges meet (EX: T1/T2/U2 and Q3/R2/R3, etc.) Separate location, adjacent to 3 adjoining ground level hexes. Can be occupied by 1 MMC (and SMC/SW) or Gun (NA Lg Target type). Cost of 2 MP to gain access to from adjacent hex. Cost of 1 MP to gain access to Infantry (only) from adjacent hexside(s). +2 TEM. OBA, Resid fire and Smoke: If 2 or more adjacent hexes are affected, so is the BV.

Cart Path (CP): the hexside between 2 narrow bocage hexes. Can only be accessed by 1 MMC (and SMC/SW) from adjacent hex or BV. Cost of 2 MP over bocage (1 MP if gap) to enter into. May not remain in bypass along CP.

Narrow Road (NR): the road between 2 narrow bocage hexes. Use of Narrow Street Rules (B31.1) and: AFVs use Bocage rules for Movement through/over, and for WA.

LOS between adjacent hexes is N/A if across a CP or NR hexside.

Why not stay in the CP?