A.P. Fourteen.

[von Marwitz]

Crap, mis-typed after double checking the coordinate. I meant I9.

Maybe you had too much in the pub already. Watch out when you step out on the street so that you don't get OVR by some inattentive King Tiger...

von Marwitz

 

[Ric of The LBC]

On one hand it is nice that there is a continuous flow of new geo-maps.

But on the other hand I mirror Philippe D.'s opinion: If you miss out on something, it might get difficult or expensive to close the gaps later. You are somewhat "obliged" to buy stuff to keep the core components (to which I count geo-maps) complete. This is true not only for MMP but also for BFP.

I also agree that new maps increasingly see less and less play. Usually in the product they are published with. And after that, chances of their being used decreases with every extra map published. At the same time the chances for you running into problems without a complete set of geo-maps increases with every new geo-map.

I won't go so far yet, that additional geo-maps become more a liability rather than an asset for that reason. But this viewpoint is from the perspective of a player who has been with the hobby for decades and having kept his kit complete.

For anyone entering the hobby, the perspective might very well and increasingly be the opposite. Especially, if core components are not available separately. That this observation is true may be witnessed for example by the commercial success of countersheets by Broken Ground. It might be the only (cardboard-) way to get hold of certain nationalities at this time. And financially, it might be the only viable way for new players on top. The cumulative price for all counters of all nationalties is massive even if resorting to Broken Ground. If you were to get a complete kit by MMP, ist would be unsurmountable en bloc for most (and impossible, too, for things being OoP continuously).

Basically with the scope and scale of the necessary components for a complete ASL 'core-kit' (i.e. all nationalies, function coounters, geo-boards and rule-book), the current business model of selling them by core-modules is not worthwhile any longer but obsolete. The system should be switched to sale by component (i.e. individual geo-boards, counter-sheets (or sets of these), rules-sections, and scenario packs) with only HASLs remaining based on the current 'module'-system.

For a newbie wanting to go 'all in' the current solution with regard to counters is actually Broken Ground. With regard to geo-maps it is to print out VASL-maps on 160g/m² paper of individual scenarios played with a normal ink-jet printer.

von Marwitz

Since I got back into this 2 years ago from a hiatus of 24 years since my last purchase. I've spent about $2000 (RitterKrieg mostly) catching up on just the MMP stuff. I had most of the AH core modules + RB, KGP I and Solitaire. Bought the new Yanks and BV and map pack.

I'm still short 6 maps (AP 4 and 8), Italians and most of the historicals which is ok.

So yes and a lot of $$$ to get current.

Attached is my purchasing spredsheet I started to keep track of all this.

 

[Gordon]

Since I got back into this 2 years ago from a hiatus of 24 years since my last purchase. I've spent about $2000 (RitterKrieg mostly) catching up on just the MMP stuff. I had most of the AH core modules + RB, KGP I and Solitaire. Bought the new Yanks and BV and map pack.

I'm still short 6 maps (AP 4 and 8), Italians and most of the historicals which is ok.

So yes and a lot of $$$ to get current.

Attached is my purchasing spredsheet I started to keep track of all this.

Amen brother, been there, gone through that.

 

[Gordon]

Maybe you had too much in the pub already. Watch out when you step out on the street so that you don't get OVR by some inattentive King Tiger...

von Marwitz

The girls from the dorms sunbathing in I7 distracted me.

 

[Tuomo]

Well. That de-escalated quickly.

Some folks like new boards. Give them a product with JAVM (Just Another Village Map) and a few scenarios, and they're happy. And others apparently start seeing the downsides, which seem to include difficulty in aquiring a complete kit and dilution of playability since it becomes less of a given that most players will have the board your scenario is based on.

I'm pretty firmly in the former camp; I don't mind some over-attention to a few board types and I don't publish scenarios, so I don't worry about players not having all the required boards. Maybe it becomes a self-fulfilling practice; the more products have new boards, the more products NEED TO have new boards. Also, the ease of putting out new boards (and the general aversion to overlays) also makes it easier for designers to want new boards for their designs, rather than make do with old boards and overlays. It also maybe doesn't help that certain map elves keep pestering board designers with things like "Hey, do you need a new map? I wanna do a new map!"

Others' mileages apparently vary, but I don't find this disturbing. We all spend plenty of money on this hobby; I don't mind needing to spend more, and I don't mind not having the boards to play certain scenarios; I just play something else. Not being a newbie, I don't feel the pain of trying to start up or keep up. I would think MMP would find it in their best interest to address that concern, though.

Lastly and FWIW, in my experience it's far easier to sell publishers on a new board if it presents something unique to the system. Believe it or not, there are still new things out there, and publishers want to put out new things. Steve Swann has an Arid Boards project for LFT that's coming out soon/"soon", featuring something like 6-8 new DTO boards that give you more than what you can get with boards 25-31 and overlays. I've done some boards for BFP that will be coming out "soon" that do new PTO things that I'm very happy with. Board 84 in this thread is something new that couldn't be done with previous maps and overlays. I did an Iwo Jima geoboard that will be featured in a tournament "soon". Etc.

So, sure - I can see how others may see some downside here. I just don't agree that it's a problem. Ultimately, if JAVM products stop selling (and I'm not calling AP14 such a product), I imagine publishers will shy away from them. Until then, my take is that people are still interested, and as long as I'm not part of a machine that's cranking out crap and/or overcharging for it, that seems like a good thing.

 

[Gordon]

Well put, and awesome work on the boards, as usual.

 

[DWPetros]

We can not have enough boards. Of all the 'new' component types that can still be produced - new mapboards and scenarios are fun to have and the whole object here is.. fun. We have the counters, we have the rulebook. New boards stimulate scenario design - as Evan says. Pete, Evan, Bill, Chas - the best designers need inspiration - and boards give them that. To that end, there are so many other possible boards not yet done. There are about 200 sketches in the wings Lots of Normandy/European, Russian, Italian, PTO, Korean board possibilities that Tom and I have worked on.

Board 12a layout and design was based on an actual Normandy village, large buildings and all. Other types of Normandy (or northern European) villages could have been done - but board 12a is a mix of small and large which should make it pretty versatile. Board 84 was based also on some typical Normandy hills - somewhat low, the top of the hill shrouded by hedgerows. Hill 192, Hill 30, others were in mind.

 

[von Marwitz]

Since I got back into this 2 years ago from a hiatus of 24 years since my last purchase. I've spent about $2000 (RitterKrieg mostly) catching up on just the MMP stuff. I had most of the AH core modules + RB, KGP I and Solitaire. Bought the new Yanks and BV and map pack.

I'm still short 6 maps (AP 4 and 8), Italians and most of the historicals which is ok.

So yes and a lot of $$$ to get current.

Attached is my purchasing spredsheet I started to keep track of all this.

So that's a first hand example to elaborate on my point. And notably, you even had some stuff from before your - admittedly - long time hiatus.

What is more: Have a look at the picture from ASLOK. Almost all of the people there have at least some grey hair and many are bald. This also means that they are most likely in a in an age where they can afford to spend some money on the hobby. I think it would be harder for some college student or someone who has just founded a family and bought a place to live to cover expenditures of $2000 for a board game.

Admittedly, there won't be that many young ones that nowadays find their way to ASL (since they are busy looking at their smartphone all day...). When the current middle-aged well funded generation of players wanes away, this will have an impact on the hobby if no adaptations are made. Not my personal problem, but just sayin'.

von Marwitz

 

[olli]

What we really need is a HASL map of... Europe. Just for starters.

No western Russia and Eastern Europe first

 

[commissarmatt]

I won't go so far yet, that additional geo-maps become more a liability rather than an asset for that reason. But this viewpoint is from the perspective of a player who has been with the hobby for decades and having kept his kit complete.

von Marwitz

I think it's getting close to that point. The whole point of geomaps is to be able to mix and match how they are joined to create new battlefield layouts. The permutations possible by now must be astronomical already. My stack of maps already takes up a ton of table space. We're up to 84 maps now? Good lord. I really think we could dial it down a notch, and have designers use the current boards more rather than keep pumping out new boards. I still get plenty of enjoyment out of playing on board 3.

 

[Gordon]

I really think the judicious production and use of overlays could expand our horizons tremendously. They could breath new life into older boards and repurpose some of the boards with limited use/appeal (cough) I'm looking at YOU airfield boards.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

We can not have enough boards.

I think Rembrandt once said "we can not have enough portraits."

 

[Eagle4ty]

I really think the judicious production and use of overlays could expand our horizons tremendously. They could breath new life into older boards and repurpose some of the boards with limited use/appeal (cough) I'm looking at YOU airfield boards.

Yes, and therein lie the heart of the problem(?) or at least its initial impetus. For a some ASLers there is a real aversion to using overlays and it is a quite vocal group at that. To rectify that seeming problem each "pack" (with an increased production schedule over that of a module) started to come out with new terrain boards to more adequately fit the situations presented in the scenario's designs that were included within. However, now it seems as the production of newer geo-boards has taken on a life of its own; and now after a board is produced a scenario is shoe-horned into it because of the plethora of scenarios being designed. Now this is not saying we do not have a need for newer geo-boards, and I for one love maps anyway and always almost enjoy any new presentation, but use of overlays can solve many design choices if one is not averse to their use.

 

[Tuomo]

To rectify that seeming problem each "pack" (with an increased production schedule over that of a module) started to come out with new terrain boards to more adequately fit the situations presented in the scenario's designs that were included within. However, now it seems as the production of newer geo-boards has taken on a life of its own; and now after a board is produced a scenario is shoe-horned into it because of the plethora of scenarios being designed.

"Increased production schedule" = 2 months for a geoboard, at the outside. That ain't much, to me.

And I don't follow your last point. It seemed like you were saying that boards started to proliferate to match the scenarios in the pack, but now... scenarios are being shoe-horned into boards? Wouldn't that have been the case back in the day when all we had was board 3 and we liked it?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I welcome 12a/b as it is one of the few boards with a narrow streets village, the other two are 46 and 67. Most of the others are simply too open to fulfil many tactical situations.

Ditto 84 as we have many hill boards but few that have hills are sufficiently cluttered, whatever about the surrounding terrain.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Some folks like new boards. Give them a product with JAVM (Just Another Village Map) and a few scenarios, and they're happy.

I am happy with new scenarios.
If a JAVM comes with them, well, I won't complain : boards are cheap to print, so they don't impact the price (and the shipping cost, as they are light to carry).
I of course am even more happy with more original boards - as board 84 here.
Steppe, old town, moors, devastated landscape and/or printed, extensive, trenches, etc. terrains could be better represented, for an example.
Now board 12a is interesting because of the gully, otherwise it is "business as usual", even though it always is a new challenge to play with a different terrain configuration.
But as long as the scenarios are fun to play, I won't hesitate to purchase a pack.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I welcome 12a/b as it is one of the few boards with a narrow streets village, the other two are 46 and 67. Most of the others are simply too open to fulfil many tactical situations.

Ditto 84 as we have many hill boards but few that have hills are sufficiently cluttered, whatever about the surrounding terrain.

Shoulda had some combo sunken-road/woods hexes on that bocage-y hill. The standard road net seems kinda outta place. Not anyone's fault, I think the Gnarl button was simply mis-calibrated.

 

[regularjoe]

Maybe do the bocage as a double sided board and the flip side has no bocage?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Maybe do the bocage as a double sided board and the flip side has no bocage?

For the non-"Fort" style boards, I prefer them single sided. Due to the cost of printing I suspect that having them on two boards would be less than twice the price of a single double sided board. Besides, if they are separate boards you can have both in the same scenario.

 

[Thunderchief]

What we really need is a HASL map of... Europe. Just for starters.

And a winterized version on the back!