Your Military Historian Sucks

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Agreed. I would add one other limitation: plenty of studies have show that eye witnesses are unreliable. While we must accept them because it is hard to find a better source, we have to also accept the story they tell has limitations and is likely to run afoul of your "other type" revisionism on some level. -- jim
There is truth in this. Memory is something that can alter and change over the course of the years despite those who relate it will swear it is what they experienced and are convinced of it.

The best source of reports of what actually happened - with regard to personal experience - are often those noted down immediately after the event or very soon thereafter.

That said, the limitations of what the person in question could actually oversee and interpret correctly need to be taken into consideration. The same is true for the viewpoints taken back then. As Jim said: They have to be evaluated within the historical context back then.

So the best sources would be well informed individuals that recorded their experiences just after they happened which are then later collected and analyzed with scientific methods by people who have no personal interest in a personal rather than neutral and detached interpretation.

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Memory is something that can alter and change over the course of the years despite those who relate it will swear it is what they experienced and are convinced of it.
The fact that you are the fourth person in this thread to point it out suggests that memory retention is even worse than you have described it.

Also the fact that the OP's actual question has escaped your notice....

Which historians do you like, and why?
 

holdit

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
414
Reaction score
568
Location
Ireland
Country
llIreland
Which historians do you like, and why?
For WW2, Beevor and Hastings (whose work on Vietnam was also excellent). I might be adding James Holland to the list once I've got round to his work on Normandy. Cornelius Ryan of course who I believe pioneered the helicopter-and-worm's-eye-view style, even if his works are now out-of-date. Dislike: Stephen Ambrose. Nothing against E/506th but I think there's a difference between history and hero-worship. Other dislike: Bruce Quarrie.

Allen Guelzo wins the American Civil War section by default because his "Gettysburg: The Last Invasion" is the only ACW work I've ever read. But I thought it was it was superb.

For Napoleonics, Adam Zamoyski for his superb account of the 1812 campaign and his biography of Napoleon. Alessandro Barbero for his account of Waterloo, and J.R. Elting for "Swords Around a Throne" and the "Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars" (a beautiful coffee-table book). "Swords" may not be 100% sound in it's historicity but it's a terrific read.

In ancient history I'm only a little better-read than I am for the American Civil War, but Mary Beard and Tom Holland are excellent. Beard's enthusiasm for the history of Rome is infectious and thought-provoking and Holland's narrative approach is highly entertaining and informative, even if the style demands that the arguments for how he arrives at conclusions are left out. His "Rubicon" and "Dynasty" are must-reads for anyone interested in how the Roman Republic went pear-shaped and became an empire, albeit one that pretended it was still a republic.

Lastly, a shout out for John Ellis and John Keegan. Ellis's "The Sharp End of War" is an eye-opening work about the reality of the life of an infantryman in the front lines. Keegan's "The Face of Battle", with its examinations of the battles of Agincourt, Waterloo and The Somme from the point of view how they were experienced by the men who fought in them, is surely a must-read for anyone interested in military history.
 

Thunderchief

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
739
Location
Canberra, Australia
Country
llAustralia
According to eyewitness accounts, the Germans had several tens of thousands of Tigers in France and Germany in 1944.
True.

But if you think about it, when someone is being fired on by an enemy weapon, an "88" might be a 47mm or a 105mm or an 88mm, a "Tiger" might be a Pz IV, StuG or a Tiger, but the person on the receiving end is not likely to call out "Excuse me, I hope to survive the war and write about it later on, can you please identify your weaponry so I can make my account as correct as possible." Considering how many different weapons of different origins were facing the Normandy beaches, the likelihood that someone was being fired on by an 88 was very small, but it certainly might have felt like it.

So there is what it "felt like" and what was happening, and a reader has to sometimes work this out for themselves.
 

holdit

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
414
Reaction score
568
Location
Ireland
Country
llIreland
True.

But if you think about it, when someone is being fired on by an enemy weapon, an "88" might be a 47mm or a 105mm or an 88mm, a "Tiger" might be a Pz IV, StuG or a Tiger, but the person on the receiving end is not likely to call out "Excuse me, I hope to survive the war and write about it later on, can you please identify your weaponry so I can make my account as correct as possible." Considering how many different weapons of different origins were facing the Normandy beaches, the likelihood that someone was being fired on by an 88 was very small, but it certainly might have felt like it.

So there is what it "felt like" and what was happening, and a reader has to sometimes work this out for themselves.
And if you look at the Pz IV H/J with that round turret skirt, and the similar muzzle brake it's easy to see how in the smoke, confusion and trousers-wetting suddenness of it all, one might assume that it was a Tiger being engaged.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
True.

But if you think about it, when someone is being fired on by an enemy weapon, an "88" might be a 47mm or a 105mm or an 88mm, a "Tiger" might be a Pz IV, StuG or a Tiger, but the person on the receiving end is not likely to call out "Excuse me, I hope to survive the war and write about it later on, can you please identify your weaponry so I can make my account as correct as possible." Considering how many different weapons of different origins were facing the Normandy beaches, the likelihood that someone was being fired on by an 88 was very small, but it certainly might have felt like it.

So there is what it "felt like" and what was happening, and a reader has to sometimes work this out for themselves.
88 or 9mm, if it's got your name on it the day isn't going to end well.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Totally agree, getting shot at by anything can cause a "significant emotional event" in the words of Nicholas Moran.
Played wargames against another sub. I was on watch in the lower level engine room when suddenly CLANG!! A rubber tipped torpedo hit about 50 feet forward of where I was. Funny feeling.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Totally agree, getting shot at by anything can cause a "significant emotional event" in the words of Nicholas Moran.
I can attest it's an attention-getter for sure, though there is that WTF moment when you're sure that RPG projectile was as big as a beach ball (I'll swear to it!).:eek:
 

Gordon

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
2,488
Reaction score
2,940
Country
llUnited States
Played wargames against another sub. I was on watch in the lower level engine room when suddenly CLANG!! A rubber tipped torpedo hit about 50 feet forward of where I was. Funny feeling.
What wargame? Via Skype or PBEM?

Just kidding, I know what wargame, Wooden Ships & Iron Men. ;)
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,480
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Donald Kagan for his treatise on the Peloponnesian War

Tom Holland for his "Persian Fire", "Dynasty", "In the Shadow of the Sword" and "Millennium"

Adrian Goldsworthy and Peter Heather for their works on Rome, Caesar, Augustus, the collapse of the empire and 'Barbarian' migrations

Norman F Cantor's "The Civilization of the Middle Ages". This is a must read classic of the rise of the Church and its evolution in medieval Europe.

John Julius Norwich for his three volume history of "Byzantium" and "The Middle Sea"

Dan Jones and Allison Weir for their books on late medieval Britain.

Tim Blanning for his "The Pursuit of Glory - Europe 1648-1815"

Barbara Tuchman for "The Guns of August" and "The Proud Tower" concerning WWI. In the same genre is Margret MacMillan's "The War that Ended Peace" and "Paris 1919"

For WWII Barrie Pitt, Michael Carver, Glantz & House, Stahel and D'Este.
 

Yuri0352

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
2,115
Reaction score
1,200
Location
25-30 Hexes
Country
llUnited States
Anyone interested in military history should watch the BBC program "Once Upon a Time in Iraq":


History told by the people who were there..........
I watched this last week on PBS, an excellent and heartbreaking account of the war and its effect upon the civilian population and their society.
Highly recommended.
 

holdit

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
414
Reaction score
568
Location
Ireland
Country
llIreland
Anyone interested in military history should watch the BBC program "Once Upon a Time in Iraq":


History told by the people who were there..........
Irish IP addresses are locked out of the BBC player, but I see it's on Sky at the moment (episodes 1 and 2 already aired). I've set the rest to record.
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,071
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Irish IP addresses are locked out of the BBC player, but I see it's on Sky at the moment (episodes 1 and 2 already aired). I've set the rest to record.
VPN's are your friend. I am living in Germany but that's not what my VPN says ;) -- jim
 
Top