Ye owd sniper morality question...

hayesncsu

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I've never met anyone happy to lose.

i've met lots of people who say they are. But, just by the look on their face, and their tone, it's clear they would rather have won.

I'll be honest, losing doesn't spoil the game for me, but I do enjoy winning considerably more. And I do play to win and am slightly disappointed when I lose even if it's been a brilliant scenario.
Martin I do not like to lose any more than the next player. I still much prefer to play with someone who I enjoy being around. It sounds like you do to just clarifying my earlier comment. Thank you.
 

Martin Mayers

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Martin I do not like to lose any more than the next player. I still much prefer to play with someone who I enjoy being around. It sounds like you do to just clarifying my earlier comment. Thank you.
Correct. Don't let Benn fool ya's all though. He'll do anything whatsoever to win. Even to the extent of pulling the wrong tanks out of a box and then arguing that he "did me a major favour" and that it was better anyway that I had the Russian ones with the smoke exponent rather than the Russian ones with no smoke but armour making it impervious to the 88L gun defending the bridge which I had to get across.

Cheating, Scouse, bastard he is.

:D
 

takai

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I don't think my game is anywhere good enough, so I have to accept that I do not catch a lot stuff. However, when I do, I point it out. I believe that playing a clean game is important in terms of scenario balance.

Having said that, ASL is a competitive game with a certain level of aggression built into it - and I play to win. So I'll let my opponent run circles around the proper sequence of events as prescribed by the ASOP any day (I find it hard to remember the proper sequence myself), but will not let him take back a move into the open where I can get a clear shot at his stack, because that's what the game is about. I'd also let him happily CE his one man turret, because you should know your tools and that most certainly is part of the game as well: to maximise the impact of your pieces.
 

lightspeed

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My friend's Canadian. This was in Canada.

Not that you're wrong about our acceptance of injustice.
Folks,

As I've posted in the opponents wanted column that I will be in Aberdeen in November and am looking for
a game, I want to set the record straight.

It was the only time I played X. Early in the game, he rallied a unit and repaired a MG (in that order). He asked
if it was ok, I said yes. Later, I asked for the same, he said no; he said he played "strictly by the book." I noticed
that in other games, he played "loosely" with the rules...always to his advantage. In one game, he had two Guns and
four crews. He claimed that he thought the Guns automatically came with crews, and that the two crews on
the scenario card were extra. I found out later he pulled the same stunt three months earlier at another tournament.

Oh, it was the last turn...I didn't make his life miserable for an hour. He did ask the TD for a ruling. The TD sided with me.

I don't think X's behaviour was because he was at a tournament. I would characterize him as a part time player
and a full time jerk. I have never played anyone else even close to X in or out of a tournament.

Like everyone else, I want to play by the book. I consider charts part of the book. And the ASoP says that
"Inconsequential violations of sequence should be tolerated in the spirit of good sportsmanship."

To answer Martin's original questions, I would and have pointed out things that were to my detriment (as has he).
The broken unit is not allowed to stay ADJ. Had it been Martin (or me, or most everyone else I have played), the
unit would be allowed (forced?) to rout before advancing a unit in for CC.

indy
 
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volgaG68

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I might also add that although forgiving a forgotten rally attempt or SW repair, etc, there are certain things on the ASOP that I feel must be adhered to in order or there is no sense in even having them numbered as such. An obvious example is Berserk units being the first ones to move. A less obvious scenario I recently discovered:

A broken crew w/HMG is stacked with a GO crew w/mtr. The GO crew is unable to recover (1.14B) or receive the transfer of the HMG (1.22B). Now we reach 1.23B where the broken crew can attempt to rally. He rolls 6,6 and disappears. "Yeah, the crew with the mortar will try to Recover his HMG." Uh, no, he won't. Not until your next MPh. "Well, it's still the Rally Phase but, yeah, if you want to be technical about it." [Translation: if you want to be an a**hole about it.]

So is that being too 'technical' about things? Otherwise, one would attempt to rally/self-rally all crews and HS first, out of ASOP order, to see if anyone rolls boxcars and drops their weapons. I'm sure there are a number of other things one can find in the ASOP that seem to be numbered as they are for a reason. If we had started the PFPh and you forgot to try to pick up an unpossessed SW at the bottom of a huge Jenga-like stack, I have no problem with it, unless it was dropped only in that previous RPh by a HS/crew that rolled boxcars.
 

volgaG68

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"Inconsequential violations of sequence should be tolerated in the spirit of good sportsmanship."
I agree, but must also say I have found my definition of 'inconsequential' differing from that of my opponent before.
 

lightspeed

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I might also add that although forgiving a forgotten rally attempt or SW repair, etc, there are certain things on the ASOP that I feel must be adhered to in order or there is no sense in even having them numbered as such. An obvious example is Berserk units being the first ones to move. A less obvious scenario I recently discovered:

A broken crew w/HMG is stacked with a GO crew w/mtr. The GO crew is unable to recover (1.14B) or receive the transfer of the HMG (1.22B). Now we reach 1.23B where the broken crew can attempt to rally. He rolls 6,6 and disappears. "Yeah, the crew with the mortar will try to Recover his HMG." Uh, no, he won't. Not until your next MPh. "Well, it's still the Rally Phase but, yeah, if you want to be technical about it." [Translation: if you want to be an a**hole about it.]

So is that being too 'technical' about things? Otherwise, one would attempt to rally/self-rally all crews and HS first, out of ASOP order, to see if anyone rolls boxcars and drops their weapons. I'm sure there are a number of other things one can find in the ASOP that seem to be numbered as they are for a reason. If we had started the PFPh and you forgot to try to pick up an unpossessed SW at the bottom of a huge Jenga-like stack, I have no problem with it, unless it was dropped only in that previous RPh by a HS/crew that rolled boxcars.
I don't think that's being too technical...not moving a Berserk unit first is often NOT inconsequential. Neither is
your example about Recover/Self-Rally. Recover/Repair/Rally in a strange order in different locations is often inconsequential.

indy
 

lightspeed

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I agree, but must also say I have found my definition of 'inconsequential' differing from that of my opponent before.
Ditto. I've also found my definition of "good sportsmanship" to be a bit different from others'.

indy
 

volgaG68

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I don't think that's being too technical...not moving a Berserk unit first is often NOT inconsequential. Neither is
your example about Recover/Self-Rally. Recover/Repair/Rally in a strange order in different locations is often inconsequential.

indy
Your quote concerning R/R/R perhaps summed up my message even better than I did. In different Locations, often inconsequential; in the same Location, often consequential.
 

bendizoid

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Normally, when I remind somebody of their sniper they usually miss anyway and I get to feel good about being awesome.

Concerning strange attitudes, it's in my nature to be reflective. If the tone of the game is fun and earnest, I'm all good with a go back or two. If the games tone is a little more serious I can do that to.
 

Martin Mayers

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Folks,

As I've posted in the opponents wanted column that I will be in Aberdeen in November and am looking for
a game, I want to set the record straight.

It was the only time I played X. Early in the game, he rallied a unit and repaired a MG (in that order). He asked
if it was ok, I said yes. Later, I asked for the same, he said no; he said he played "strictly by the book." I noticed
that in other games, he played "loosely" with the rules...always to his advantage. In one game, he had two Guns and
four crews. He claimed that he thought the Guns automatically came with crews, and that the two crews on
the scenario card were extra. I found out later he pulled the same stunt three months earlier at another tournament.

Oh, it was the last turn...I didn't make his life miserable for an hour. He did ask the TD for a ruling. The TD sided with me.

I don't think X's behaviour was because he was at a tournament. I would characterize him as a part time player
and a full time jerk. I have never played anyone else even close to X in or out of a tournament.

Like everyone else, I want to play by the book. I consider charts part of the book. And the ASoP says that
"Inconsequential violations of sequence should be tolerated in the spirit of good sportsmanship."

To answer Martin's original questions, I would and have pointed out things that were to my detriment (as has he).
The broken unit is not allowed to stay ADJ. Had it been Martin (or me, or most everyone else I have played), the
unit would be allowed (forced?) to rout before advancing a unit in for CC.

indy
My version of this story was far better I thought.

Funniest thing is I didn't intend to mention you by name which is why I kept mentioning 'friend'. Only just realised I used your actual name in the first sentence.

WOOOOPS

:)
 

Martin Mayers

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Normally, when I remind somebody of their sniper they usually miss anyway and I get to feel good about being awesome.

Concerning strange attitudes, it's in my nature to be reflective. If the tone of the game is fun and earnest, I'm all good with a go back or two. If the games tone is a little more serious I can do that to.
The best one is when one says "do you wanna repair that MG" and they say thanks and then roll a 6

I don't even roll in such circumstances because I just KNOW it's inevitable :)
 

Philippe D.

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A broken crew w/HMG is stacked with a GO crew w/mtr. The GO crew is unable to recover (1.14B) or receive the transfer of the HMG (1.22B). Now we reach 1.23B where the broken crew can attempt to rally. He rolls 6,6 and disappears. "Yeah, the crew with the mortar will try to Recover his HMG." Uh, no, he won't. Not until your next MPh. "Well, it's still the Rally Phase but, yeah, if you want to be technical about it." [Translation: if you want to be an a**hole about it.]
It's not being an a**hole. In this situation, not following the ASOP is certainly not inconsequential, as you mention.

I'm all for not following the ASOP (besides, it's printed too small for my eyes nowadays), as long as the out-of-sequence actions would have happened the same way if following it. That means you can roll for rally and weapon recovery/repair in any order, but certainly not try to recover the weapon after its possessor disappeared when they tried to rally.

The situation is more tricky with Prep/Defensive Fire Phases, because one important thing that is easy to miss for new players is the restriction on firing Smoke (and I just discovered, by checking the ASOP, the real order between firing Smoke and OBA actions). So if my opponent tried to fire Smoke after other Prep Fire or Defensive Fire Phase actions, I'd typically let him do it (if he was less experienced than I am; and as long as he wasn't trying to lay Smoke in the way of previous attacks), but I'd remind him that such actions should be done before others, point out why it can be important (typically, most Smoke sources have a Depletion number, so making the decision to go for Smoke should be done before knowing the results of attacks that use non-depletable ammo), and in later turns would probably not let him go out of sequence - if the opponent had OBA and he started announcing fire actions before his OBA actions, I'd typically ask if he didn't want to do his OBA first.
 

kcole4001

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I always remember now "It's the Smoke, OBA, and Prep Fire Phase".
It's a very good way to keep things straight.
I have actually written that out on copies of the ASOP that I've printed so my son and I will remember it better.
It is best to try to do things in order, but obviously sometimes we all slip up.

Then there are times when, as volga mentioned, you can't go back because that's the way the ASOP is written, and it was done that way for a reason.
That is NOT being a jerk, it is following the rules as they were intended, and that is an important part of the game, not a memory lapse at all.

I'm quite sure we've all been in the situation where the sequence of events made SW recovery impossible, or at least for another turn, but the rules were written that way specifically for that effect.
It's just the way it is.
 

MatrimSaric

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There's an interesting difference of opinion occurring here. The rules are complex enough that missing something is easy and if strictly kept to can lead to a death by a thousand cuts of unknown rules. I wonder how satisfying it is to win because you had a better knowledge of the rules when you may otherwise have been outfought?

I tend to pre-warn If something stupid is about to happen which my oppo is unaware of but have also given big takebacks 'i could have used my tank to clear that wire last turn, can I roll now? And my personal favourite 'didnt notice the hill now my tanks are misplaced can I flatten the map and pretend It does not exist' from the same player who in the same game when I announced a shot, before rolling said 'ouch that's a lot of positives I may wait' had him say 'no, you announced the shot so must take it otherwise it is unfair'

Serious stuff I carry on and treat as a lesson anyone who tried the 'you said weather roll before setting up your off board reserves so don't get them' then I'd just resign and never play them again. Life is too short to waste time on arseholes imho...though that probably was not humble...
 

Philippe D.

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Someone trying to apply such double standards in a single game is either a complete jerk, or just not realizing what he's doing. Point the fact to him; if he's still trying to do it by the book only when it is to his advantage, well, look for another opponent.
 
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