Yanks and Forgotten War are the Only Modules in Print or Pappy Van Winkle is Easier to Get than ASL

[witchbottles]

It does seem weird to let BV go out of print. I assume it's their flagship product. Are MMP's margins must so slim they have to let it go out of stock from time to time? Is it problems with printing capacity?

The most common reason put forth is inventory storage capacity.

 

[Evan Sherry]

When SP products will be available to be purchased with credit cards and/or Paypal, your complaint will have some value.
My neg waves are also meant to make you evolve towards a friendlier business model, especially for non Unitedstatisians.

That argument is without merit. Our products are available via credit card from our retailers at The Gamer's Armory, Second Chance Games and Nobel Knight. Please find another reason not to buy them.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

I'm afraid I will respectfully disagree. In the AH era you might get something ASL every year. In most years it was just a pair of General scenarios, though I remember a year or two without even that.

The best you could expect was a core, a HASL or an Annual in any one year. Maybe there there was a 12 month period or two where you might get an Annual along with either a core or HASL.

MMP's early years were little better, but the last decade or so have seen a very great improvement. I would guess MMP's recent output at at least twice the 1980s-2000 rate, if not three or more times.

I know that memory can deceive, but true tales of the AH era would sound like Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

In the AH era I could walk into a gamestore and see all the produced modules on the shelf. I recall buying Solitaire ASL and thinking "Should I buy P, HL and LH? That would complete the set.. Naw, I'll never want those"

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I'm firmly in the BV and ASLRB should never be out of priny- no faster way to kill a hobby than to have it's core tenets be unavailable to new blood.

Yeah, look how MMP is suffering, selling out all the new offerings within 2 days of preorders going live. The fools. It's like they actually know their core business or something.

To those, like Honza who claim something was always waiting to be printed in this hobby, when exactly did TAHGC ever run out of ASLRB or BV as not available? I'll tell you when - 1998 when they locked their doors. Never before was it unavailable or out of print.

They overprinted because they could afford to. They also owned their own publisher and offered far more than just ASL, or for that matter, wargames.

Yes MMP has limited storage capacity.

I suspect there are at most half a dozen posters here who might be in a position to comment intelligently on what MMP has or does not have. I am not one of them therefore I'm in no position to support or refute your claims of understanding - just in a position to admit I don't know what I don't know. With the exception of:

The ASLRB and BV are the core of the business.

Obviously and patently wrong, and the fact you're posting it is the proof of how wrong it is. If they are selling out the action packs and new modules as fast as they print them - guess what that makes the "core of the business"? The existing customers.

A bird in the hand is worth two (that might be) in the bush (somewhere, maybe).

 

[Ric of The LBC]

I'm firmly in the BV and ASLRB should never be out of print- no faster way to kill a hobby than to have it's core tenets be unavailable to new blood. To those, like Honza who claim something was always waiting to be printed in this hobby, when exactly did TAHGC ever run out of ASLRB or BV as not available? I'll tell you when - 1998 when they locked their doors. Never before was it unavailable or out of print.

Yes MMP has limited storage capacity. They also have at least 20 years, if not more, first-hand knowledge and datasets on how many copies of each are purchased annually - so running out is just not a viable option if the desire is to keep the hobby taking in new players. It takes me about 30 minutes to forecast a Hi and Lo supply schedule for any product in an inventory based on historical sales/demand figures. you order when the product base hits Lo, and you don't run out - its called just in time inventory- and has been a standard business model for well over 40 years now. MMP has limited storage capacity for inventory - no problem, most businesses do, my own included.

I'm not going to run out of stock on 12 ga shotgun shells or on dog food or on game bred pheasants - they represent the core of the business. The ASLRB and BV are the core of the business. Establish a Hi/Lo and keep them in stock - Adjust to meet sales forecasts as annual data is updated every April 15th. This is not rocket science, its business model management, something damn near everyone I have ever met in ASLdom is quite familiar with.

The rest, sure, print/re-print based on supply and demand historical data, updated regularly. Run out after prints are sold - do not maintain excess stock of modules / components that are not part of the core for the system - I run out of mosquito repellent, hunting license protective holders, e-collar models for dogs, training dummies, t-shirts with the business logo on them - etc, from time to time as well. None of them are requisite for clients to enjoy the hobby. They still have Hi/Lo inventory - but if space is required, they will get out of stock on one or more occasions, as supply and demand of the core requirement items increases/decreases.

As always, YMMV

The Toyota Way

 

[Robin Reeve]

Well Evan, find yourself a better reason to whine about the availability of BV.
It can be purchased elsewhere that at MMP.
You are simply rehashing an old rant.
If I were to purchase BV, I would find a way to buy it within minutes.
Ebay would be a solution.
Of course, anybody who seriously wants to invest in ASL must be ready to shove out rather important sums of money.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Calling out MMP publicly is malevolent, useless and rather stupid.
As you are totally immobile about your own business model, you are not credible at all.

 

[Evan Sherry]

Well Evan, find yourself a better reason to whine about the availability of BV.
It can be purchased elsewhere that at MMP.
You are simply rehashing an old rant.
If I were to purchase BV, I would find a way to buy it within minutes.
Ebay would be a solution.
Of course, anybody who seriously wants to invest in ASL must be ready to shove out rather important sums of money.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Calling out MMP publicly is malevolent, useless and rather stupid.
As you are totally immobile about your own business model, you are not credible at all.

Robin, I apologize for all of my shortcomings. I am also sorry to hear that you are so unhappy with us and our meager contributions to the ASL hobby. I am fully aware that attempting satisfying you is futile because of your strange obsession and hostility toward us. I clicked a button so I will no longer be reading your comments. I suggest you do the same.

This is my hobby and not a business, so I make no claims of even having a business model. However, to our credit ALL of our products have been and are all currently available. Players need not waste time on eBay to get them and can use their extra time to get some Pappy Van Winkle which I urge you to try. Perhaps it would calm you down a little.

 

[witchbottles]

Yeah, look how MMP is suffering, selling out all the new offerings within 2 days of preorders going live. The fools. It's like they actually know their core business or something.

So nice to see MMP is sold out of KWASL, Yanks v2, AP 9,10,11,12,13 - when exactly did these "new" products go up for pre-order again and how fast did all these new offerings "sell out"? The fools who don't bother to think before they respond to an internet posting; it's like they know what they know and no one can convince them they are incorrect or something.

They overprinted because they could afford to. They also owned their own publisher and offered far more than just ASL, or for that matter, wargames.

No, TAHGC could not afford to - in fact, excess quantities of stock in inventory and poor choices in advancement into the computer gaming industry left them bankrupt. They also did not own Monarch- Avalon Publishing, in fact being several million dollars in debt to their publisher, who in fact, owned them in the end, But let's not let any inconvenient facts get in the way of snarky retorts on the internet.

Let's see here - MMP offers :

MMP Catalog

| Advanced Squad Leader | Operational Combat Series | International Game Series | Tactical Combat Series | Standard Combat Series | Battalion Combat Series | Regimental Sub-Series | Napoleonic Brigade Series | Grand Tactical Series | Civil War Brigade Series | Area Movement Series | G.C.A.C.W. | Panzerblitz 2 | Variable Combat Series | Line of Battle |​

(From their own website) - seems like "far more than just ASL", as you so quaintly put it. Again, far be it for any facts to get in the way of your own brand of thought police. I think I hear Mark Pitcavage calling you - he wants to form an internet discussion forum with you.

I suspect there are at most half a dozen posters here who might be in a position to comment intelligently on what MMP has or does not have. I am not one of them therefore I'm in no position to support or refute your claims of understanding - just in a position to admit I don't know what I don't know.

First honest thing you said in this thread, amazingly. I'd suggest you consider reading the hundreds of responses from Ken, Perry, Chas in the myriad of archived threads on GS before you assume that MMP might have sufficient inventory space for whatever pet project YOU feel it is necessary for them to keep in stock. The comment is over and over and repetitive ad nauseum from all three - across the 8 years I have been on this forum - "...not enough inventory space to hold everything in stock regularly that the customer base would like to see in stock." Still, I guess for someone with the amazing intellectual powers you perceive yourself to wield- one can easily wave away quotes from the horse's mouth - as it were....

Obviously and patently wrong, and the fact you're posting it is the proof of how wrong it is. If they are selling out the action packs and new modules as fast as they print them - guess what that makes the "core of the business"? The existing customers.

Wow, they sure do sell out new offerings as fast as they release them. When was AP 9 released? AP 10,? AP 11? AP 12? RS was in stock for how long after being printed? FB? DaE? WO packs? BoF Pack? RTTR? Tell me again just how fast you perceive these things to sell out once released? Oh wait, you already did - " within 2 days of pre-orders going live..."

A bird in the hand is worth two (that might be) in the bush (somewhere, maybe).

Your attempt to impress us with your superior intellectual intuitiveness has failed.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Threads like this really bring the crazies out of the wood work lol

I don't mean to make with the negative waves, but for crying out loud, the only core modules in print for this hobby are Yanks and Forgotten War. Even if you bought them, you would have no information counters to start playing with.

I'm glad I'm not trying to get into the hobby because I'd just go play something else, rather than try to chase down the Pappy Van Winkle of war games.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

Grabbing popcorn :waiting::facepalm:

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Your attempt to impress us with your superior intellectual intuitiveness has failed.

Who is "us"? My comments were addressed to you. And if there is anyone in the world I am less concerned with impressing than you, I'm not sure who it would be.

In any event, rest assured MMP knows their own core business. If you own the core modules already, you should be happy - you're the prime customer. You're the one hitting the ASL P#s in days, not months, and buying all the new content that they make their money on. Sit back and enjoy the new offerings. I certainly am.

So nice to see MMP is sold out of KWASL

What does that tell you about the likelihood of selling out a new print of BV? Care to pony up some of your own investment capital on the notion that BV is more lucrative than new projects?

I'd suggest you consider reading the hundreds of responses from Ken, Perry, Chas in the myriad of archived threads on GS before you assume that MMP might have sufficient inventory space for whatever pet project YOU feel it is necessary for them to keep in stock.

No idea what this is in reference to. I never mentioned inventory space.

they sure do sell out new offerings as fast as they release them. When was AP 9 released? AP 10,? AP 11? AP 12? RS was in stock for how long after being printed? FB? DaE? WO packs? BoF Pack? RTTR? Tell me again just how fast you perceive these things to sell out once released?

I never said sold out their inventory, either. They sold out the P#. That's the minimum number of units they need to sell such that whatever surplus is left over doesn't hurt them. (They print more than the number of pre-orders in order to inventory for later sales at a higher price). Those can sit, I presume the bulk of the money has already been made through the pre-orders. If you don't understand how the preorder system works, I wonder if you should be commenting so emotionally about it.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I'm firmly in the BV and ASLRB should never be out of print- no faster way to kill a hobby than to have it's core tenets be unavailable to new blood.

Unfortunate but yes. Want it, can't find it, so I go buy something else and invest my time in that instead.

While I maintain that only 1 set is needed between 2 players and hopefully 1 of them is not a noob, the purchase of BV & a Rulebook does present a commitment not only on a financial level but also on an intellectual level. So you really do want all wanting noobs to have their BV & Rulebook.

Another way to look at the whole business might be one of capital management. I have limited capital, the same way I have limited capacity. Having that capital recouped (and hopefully increased) means being able to sell out your print run. The decision then becomes where to invest that capital again so that you can recoup your capital in an acceptable time frame - picking between tried & true core modules vs new items that open up the marketplace a little further strategically so that I may have more options to direct that capital again in later rounds.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

While I maintain that only 1 set is needed between 2 players and hopefully 1 of them is not a noob, the purchase of BV & a Rulebook does present a commitment not only on a financial level but also on an intellectual level. So you really do want all wanting noobs to have their BV & Rulebook.

Another way to look at the whole business might be one of capital management. I have limited capital, the same way I have limited capacity. Having that capital recouped (and hopefully increased) means being able to sell out your print run. The decision then becomes where to invest that capital again so that you can recoup your capital in an acceptable time frame - picking between tried & true core models vs new items that open up the marketplace a little further strategically so that I may have more options to direct that capital again in later rounds.

Well stated. What I find amusing is the continual flurry of postings from people who just assume MMP gives zero thought to any of this. As if reprinting BV is some genius business decision that only they have ever considered.

I do like the very good point made earlier in the thread, incidentally - the ASLSKs were designed specifically for entry into the game - and are a source of basic game components, including systems counters.

It would be wrong to simply assume that there is a whole lot of concern in the community about "growing the hobby." I don't care, frankly. I'm happy to connect with new players, and we've started some meet-ups here in Calgary. There's another one on Saturday and I plan on attending to get a game in. But, most of the local group have been playing for decades. There is some fresh blood, which is great, but if there wasn't it wouldn't bother me. I mean, the very big corporation I work for has little to no succession planning, why should I involve myself in same for a hobby?

I think if MMP has decided (I have no reason to believe they have) to simply get their money out of the existing ASL fan base while they can, they have every right to do so, and may probably have hit on the smart thing in the long run. But, as they say in the Army here, not my circus, not my monkeys.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

not my circus, not my monkeys.

OH man. I'm stealing that one!!!

 

[Doug Kirk]

Forget ASL...give me the Pappy!!!

 

[Justiciar]

OH man. I'm stealing that one!!!

You can't you used the pop corn iconn...read the small print on the back of the icon...it goes something like "all quips are proprietary." Its part of the price of admission to the show.

Now, if you had said "and I will credit you" THEN you can use it..."stealing" we don't go in for.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Sure. In 1986, the delay for AoO was about 14 years and for FW 32.

Won't even talk about Hack a Luggie.

 

[Evan Sherry]

Well stated. What I find amusing is the continual flurry of postings from people who just assume MMP gives zero thought to any of this. As if reprinting BV is some genius business decision that only they have ever considered.

I do like the very good point made earlier in the thread, incidentally - the ASLSKs were designed specifically for entry into the game - and are a source of basic game components, including systems counters.

It would be wrong to simply assume that there is a whole lot of concern in the community about "growing the hobby." I don't care, frankly. I'm happy to connect with new players, and we've started some meet-ups here in Calgary. There's another one on Saturday and I plan on attending to get a game in. But, most of the local group have been playing for decades. There is some fresh blood, which is great, but if there wasn't it wouldn't bother me. I mean, the very big corporation I work for has little to no succession planning, why should I involve myself in same for a hobby?

I think if MMP has decided (I have no reason to believe they have) to simply get their money out of the existing ASL fan base while they can, they have every right to do so, and may probably have hit on the smart thing in the long run. But, as they say in the Army here, not my circus, not my monkeys.

You bring up a couple of interesting points. Hypothetically, speaking if MMP has the idea that the future growth of the ASL hobby is small to none, then the idea of not investing capital in re-printing and stocking slower moving products does make sense. If the real ASL customer base is the same one that bought the original versions of BV, Yanks, WOA, FKAC, CD, HL, I get it. So, if the customer base for re-reprinted modules consists mainly of those who purchased the reprinted core module as replacements for their worn out counters (I've worn out two copies of BV) or to get counters with bigger fonts or for pure speculation, then continuing to stock them may very well be prohibitive.

I applaud MMP's continued development of NEW ASL products that existing players desire. I do not support the SK concept beyond SK3. Expanding ASL to Korea was good, though in short order it will probably be ignored much as the North African Theater is now by players. And the number of APs and Winter Offensive packs, along with their additional geomorphic map-boards (a boon to scenario designers) are greatly appreciated. Jaded and disillusioned as I am, I had not specifically viewed them as a primary source of revenue to be obtained from a dwindling customer base made up mostly of long-time players such as myself (I've been playing SL/ASL since 1979). You have convinced me this may very well be the case.

The unfortunate downside of this is the tacit acknowledgement that ASL is a hobby in decline. That is neither good nor bad, but rather it may be the simple reality. Things do change and things do come to an end. When did you last put a coin in a pay phone, play a record or take a photo with a camera using film? If one views MMP as a shark (that must keep swimming and eating to survive) and that their primary strategy is to market new items aimed at the existing world-wide 5,000-10,000 (I'm rather optimistic) ASL players just so they can survive, then it is a sound one-and more likely, the only one.

I am very happy MMP sells out of product, that means they are making money. I support them and usually purchase three copies of every product they release. I have Red Factories and the AoO reprint on preorder. I understand that the French and Italians will require all new layout of their components, but most of their non-availability status predates the original release date of AoO. That is a long time folks. As a result, the North African theater is mostly dead. Having acknowledged all the reasons MMP might do so, still, instead of a yet another, third, massive Stalingrad project that is just a continuation of one battle, I would rather see the desert, Italians and French receive their re-vamped core module before the hobby does fade away.

 

[witchbottles]

{Fairly Understandable Viewpoint Put Forth Without Recrimination}

... I am very happy MMP sells out of product, that means they are making money. I support them and usually purchase three copies of every product they release. I have Red Factories and the AoO reprint on preorder. I understand that the French and Italians will require all new layout of their components, but most of their non-availability status predates the original release date of AoO. That is a long time folks. As a result, the North African theater is mostly dead. Having acknowledged all the reasons MMP might do so, still, instead of a yet another, third, massive Stalingrad project that is just a continuation of one battle, I would rather see the desert, Italians and French receive their re-vamped core module before the hobby does fade away.

If/when the hobby does "fade away" it will be precisely due to the attitudes of:

...simply assume that there is a whole lot of concern in the community about "growing the hobby." I don't care, frankly...There is some fresh blood, which is great, but if there wasn't it wouldn't bother me. I mean, the very big corporation I work for has little to no succession planning, why should I involve myself in same for a hobby?

I work diligently to ensure a portion of my available ASL time goes to helping new players into the hobby, long time returnees return to the hobby, both categories finding what they are looking for to purchase in hobby materials that are not in print and available - without paying exorbitant costs - to the point of simply giving away escess kit to noobies so they can enjoy that portion of the hobby; in addition to assisting reputable TPPs with efforts to bring new and innovative concepts to the hobby as my schedule allows, and creating additional hobby-related materials for both submission to publishers and for self-publication (at no cost when I self-publish - unlike those who attempt to make a buck on a retreaded idea of a "scenario design" book).

I find helping the hobby survive, grow and prosper to be where I find something rewarding in it. Attitudes like the one above are so self-centered on the "what do I get out of it all" routine that there is no real way to express that age-old answer: "You are only going to get out of ASL what you put into ASL." Evan, you get it. I doubt people like Michael Dorosh ever will.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Y'all need to listen to this and then play more ASL: