WP as DFF

Velocette

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The wording on page 21 of ASKSL4 RB regarding when WP can be fired it confusing for me.

My Question is: can WP be fired AFTER other non-Smoke/WP attacks been made in that Phase?

My assumption is NO, but I am struggling with “as” vs “the”....

...at the start of THE PFPh or THE DFPh or AS DFF. (Caps added for emphasis).

If only at the start of DFF, then why not just use “the” rather than “as”?!?!

Probably reading too much into it ??

Thanks
Velo
 

jrv

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The wording on page 21 of ASKSL4 RB regarding when WP can be fired it confusing for me.

My Question is: can WP be fired AFTER other non-Smoke/WP attacks been made in that Phase?

My assumption is NO, but I am struggling with “as” vs “the”....

...at the start of THE PFPh or THE DFPh or AS DFF. (Caps added for emphasis).

If only at the start of DFF, then why not just use “the” rather than “as”?!?!
The PFPh and DFPh are phases, and they have a beginning. DFF is not a phase, so you can't fire "at the start of" DFF. Further it would be mis-leading to say something like, "at the start of the enemy MPh" because the WP might be fired at the last unit to move on its last MF/MP. But the answer is, again using a ASL q&a as reference, that the WP must be placed before any non-WP ammunition fires.

JR
 

Velocette

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JRV,

Thanks again - your detailed answer clears up my confusion! Based on your response, do I have this correct below:

Basically, Smoke/WP have to be fired before anything else fires in PFPh/DFPh

And

WP must be fired before anything else fires in DFF. (Ordnance Smoke cannot be fired as DFF).

Thanks
Velo
 

jrv

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Yes, that is correct.

As an aside, WP placed as smoke grenades and Smoke placed by smoke dischargers are not bound by these restrictions.

JR
 

Velocette

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Yes, that is correct.

As an aside, WP placed as smoke grenades and Smoke placed by smoke dischargers are not bound by these restrictions.

JR
JRV,

Right then, I think I knew that....

Smoke Grenades in own MPh

And

Smoke Discharge in own or other players MPh.

Velo
 

jrv

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Smoke dischargers are bound by different restrictions. A vehicle can't use its smoke dischargers after the vehicle has bounding-first or defensive fired, but other vehicles may have bounding-first or defensive fired before using a smoke discharger.

JR
 

Velocette

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Smoke dischargers are bound by different restrictions. A vehicle can't use its smoke dischargers after the vehicle has bounding-first or defensive fired, but other vehicles may have bounding-first or defensive fired before using a smoke discharger.

JR
JRV,

Got it - my understanding is much clearer now!

Smoke/WP must Fire first! Need to lock that in my ASLSK mindset (and make a 3x5 game day card to remind me!)

Velo
 

TheSQLGuru

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I could find nothing in the SK PTO rulebook to indicate that WP must be fired before any real bullets during DFF. Here is the WP section of rule 6.2 Special Ammo:

WP (White Phosphorous): WP may only be
fired on the ATT and at the start of the PFPh
or the DFPh or as Defensive First Fire. A
unit hit with WP must take a NMC, with the
TEM subtracted from the NMC DR; Mortar
Air Bursts from WP add a +1 to the DR. A
WP CH adds the positive TEM to the DR.
Treat WP as Ordnance Smoke, except that
full WP is a +2 counter and Dispersed WP is
a +1 counter.

The only mention of smoke in rule 3.3.3 Defensive Fire is about extra MF spend by infantry to toss smoke a grenade being eligible for a shot. There is no mention of WP in that rule section. I thus conclude that WP can be fired as DFF by the player turn defender during the opponent's MPh at any point without limitations based on other units' firing. The WP rule does say to treat WP as Ordnance Smoke except counter strength. I could find nothing about Smoke in the DFF, other than it is not allowed. I don't think we should should make up restrictions about it to limit WP usage during that phase.

I will add that for AFV Vehicular Smoke Dispenser usage during its MPh, there IS a restriction stating that each vehicle may NOT use a Smoke Dispenser if that vehicle has fired any weapon (including BFF or DFF) [rule 7.5 Vehicular Smoke Dispensers]. It does seems appropriate to apply THAT to all Ordnance Smoke attempts during DFF, meaning OTHER things can fire "real bullets" - and un-fired Ordnance can still shoot WP without restriction. But if a large MTR has fired an HE shell, it may no longer try for WP - regardless of whether or not other units have fired. But even this interpretation is not truly cut and dried.
 

jrv

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As I said, it is per an ASL q&a. I expect ASLSK follows ASL, but there's no guarantee.

JR
 

kempenfelter

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I suppose a case can be made for treating Starter Kit as a stand-alone game system but I find the Big Red Book helpful to clarify SK questions. Especially when most people who start with SK move on up. And the only evidence I have for that is anecdotal. I haven't heard anyone playing SK say: "No, gosh darn it! I don't want Bypass Movement, or Concealment! Just leave me alone and let me play at this level forever!"

When I play a Starter Kit scenario using Starter Kit rules and White Phosphorus is available I follow C 8.6 White Phosphorus(WP): Unlike Smoke, WP may be fired by ordnance during (but prior to any friendly unit firing anything other than SMOKE) any friendly fire phase--not just the PFPh/DFPh--

Now, in another thread when Random Selection Yahtzee was questioned the brass ruled it has no place in Starter Kit. Okey dokey, I can live with that.
 

jrv

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Now, in another thread when Random Selection Yahtzee was questioned the brass ruled it has no place in Starter Kit.
AFAIK there is no Random Selection in ASLSK. Every place in ASL you would use Random Selection is instead "select randomly", i.e. select only one.

That said, you are right that for the most part ASLSK follows ASL, even when you submit a q&a because you found a difference. But that leaves you wondering if this is one of the exceptions. Probably not, but the only way to Know is to submit a q&a.

JR
 

TheSQLGuru

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I suppose a case can be made for treating Starter Kit as a stand-alone game system but I find the Big Red Book helpful to clarify SK questions. Especially when most people who start with SK move on up. And the only evidence I have for that is anecdotal. I haven't heard anyone playing SK say: "No, gosh darn it! I don't want Bypass Movement, or Concealment! Just leave me alone and let me play at this level forever!"

When I play a Starter Kit scenario using Starter Kit rules and White Phosphorus is available I follow C 8.6 White Phosphorus(WP): Unlike Smoke, WP may be fired by ordnance during (but prior to any friendly unit firing anything other than SMOKE) any friendly fire phase--not just the PFPh/DFPh--

Now, in another thread when Random Selection Yahtzee was questioned the brass ruled it has no place in Starter Kit. Okey dokey, I can live with that.
I'm not so sure about the "most SK players move up". A significant percentage of the membership we have in the ASLSK FB group are planning on sticking with SK (including me). SK is now truly a completely viable long-term gaming companion. There are over 100 scenarios published so far. You could play both sides of 1 scenario per month and have 10 years of play with what we currently have. And that doesn't take into effect the MASSIVE 4-board Scenario Design Contest monsters (one of which has over 100 counters at start), nor the SK version of Clash at Borisov that is floating around out there (5 boards, Germans = 25.5 squads, 10 smc w/ -11drm, 2hmg/4mmg/8lmg/ft/3dc, 2 100+ OBA modules and 10 AFVs, Russians = 41 squads, 8 smc w/ -7drm, 2X .50cal/2mmg/6lmg/atr and 8 tanks SHEW!!). BTW, I also know of at least 20 scenarios in development (5 of which will be published by Joseph Gochinski shortly and another 4 to be released with the fall edition of Banzai). Oh, and now that we have Concealment I am sure designers will be releasing new scenarios (including ETO ones) that have that SSR'd in.

Anyway, sorry for my ramble about the state of ASLSK!! As you can see I am passionate about it. I have decided to submit a ASLSK Q & A for this topic. I will report back here.
 
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