Wire Q

Georgii2222

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I've posted the following to CSW, but no response. Can anyone assist?


A melee exists in a wire hex.

A broken Russian squad is under the wire, and a brokie German is above.
Russian is the ATTACKER.

2 questions, actually.

1) when does a melee not exist anymore? Is it immediately when there's only
one side remaining in a hex, or is it at the end of the CCPh (the counter is
color-coded, so I wasn't sure)

2) Would the broken German be required to withdraw from melee? Since the
Russian, being the ATTACKER, would withdraw first, then question 1 above is
key. When is it determined whether or not he has to withdraw, at the
beginning of the CCPh, or at the time he would actually withdraw? The
question arises because if he's required to withdraw, he'd be eliminated for
failure to rout, as he can't withdraw due to being on the wire (at least I
think)....

Any insights?

Thanks,

Jeff Ital
 

Brian W

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Georgii2222 said:
Any insights?
I believe that the broken unit on the wire is eliminated for failure to rout per A11.16. The unit cannot Withdraw off of a wire counter because there are no hexes accessable to it (you cannot Advance off a Wire counter). A11.16 does not stipulate that the Melee still exist for the broken unit to be eliminated. Also, CC is not sequential in this instance.
 

Paul S

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Melee

Hi Jeff,

NRBH but here's my 2 cents,

Question #1 is a bit tricky. Melee's generally cease to exist immediately (say when one unit is K/, or if a vehicle goes into motion). However, if at the start of their CC phase, if a stack of units are in melee, then both sides need to go through the full CC dance (including declaring attacks and SMC/MMC partners (no NJ governer jokes please), non-sequential time warps due to 2's or 12's, leader creation, withdrawals, withdrawals into hopefully unoccupied hexes, etc...) That CC action would also include both sides declaring wtihdrawal from melee simultaneously, even though the attacker would conduct his withdrawal first.

Question #2
Both would declare their intent to withdraw. A routing unit could try to roll and get away, but since withdrawal from melee is treated an an advance phase move, which isn't allowed when on top of wire, I'd say the german is eliminated.

Paul Sidhu
From the great (despite our governer) state of NJ
 

Georgii2222

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Thanks, guys.

CC being simultaneous, for some reason, didn't dawn on me. That's the key to the whole thing.
 

Larry

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Broken units unable to withdraw from melee are eliminated at the end of the CC phase. Once the units under the wire withdraw, the location is no longer in melee and so the broken unit is no longer in a melee location. A11.16.

The timing of when a broken unit is important and it is not eliminated at the moment of inability to withdraw.

A11.16 Does a Disrupted unit in Melee remain in
Melee or is it eliminated for Failure to Rout?
A. It is eliminated for Failure to Rout if still
Disrupted and in Melee at the end of that CCPh.
[An92; An95w; An96; Mw]
A11.16 & A10.5 See prior entry.
So the unit on the wire is no longer in melee at the end of the CC phase and lives to die another turn.
 

Brian W

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Larry said:
So the unit on the wire is no longer in melee at the end of the CC phase and lives to die another turn.
The rule says that a broken unit in melee at the start of the CCPh that cannot rout is eliminated at the end of the CCPh--i.e. it doesn't say that the unit is eliminated if it is still in a melee location at the end of the CCPh. Regardless of when the hex ceases to be a melee hex, the unit is eliminated.

At least that is how the rules read to me. I also think that your interpretation would lead to sleazy "you're guy died before my guy withdrew, so he doesn't have to withdraw" arguments.
 

Treadhead

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Georgii2222 said:
1) when does a melee not exist anymore? Is it immediately when there's only one side remaining in a hex, or is it at the end of the CCPh (the counter is color-coded, so I wasn't sure)
I would say that the Melee ceases to exist if Infantry of both sides do not remain in the Location at the end of the CCPh.

Georgii2222 said:
2) Would the broken German be required to withdraw from melee? Since the Russian, being the ATTACKER, would withdraw first, then question 1 above is key. When is it determined whether or not he has to withdraw, at the beginning of the CCPh, or at the time he would actually withdraw? The question arises because if he's required to withdraw, he'd be eliminated for failure to rout, as he can't withdraw due to being on the wire (at least I think)....
Yes, a broken unit is required to attempt to Withdraw from Melee.

The ATTACKER must designate his attacks (or Withdrawals) first, then the DEFENDER must designate his attacks (or Withdrawal in this situation).

A broken unit on top of the Wire would not be able to Withdraw, since units on Wire may not Advance off the Wire (there are no Accessible Locations). Then, "Any non-guard broken unit unable to withdraw from Melee is eliminated at the end of the CCPh for Failure to Rout." (A11.16)

I would say the broken unit is eliminated at the end of CCPh, even if enemy units also Withdraw. I say this because a broken unit is required to attempt Withdrawal, but is prevented by the Wire. Ergo, eliminated per A11.16.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Larry

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So a broken and disrupted unit on top of wire would survive the situation but a plain broken unit would be eliminate for FTR? I don't see how the rules can be read to treat the disrupted unit better than the broken unit. :?
 

Treadhead

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Larry said:
Once the units under the wire withdraw, the location is no longer in melee and so the broken unit is no longer in a melee location.
I believe this is not correct. Both sides must declare their intention to Withdraw before any attacks/Withdrawals are resolved. The broken unit is required to Withdraw, and this requirement is not dependent upon what the enemy units do.

Larry said:
So the unit on the wire is no longer in melee at the end of the CC phase and lives to die another turn.
This is not correct either, IMO. The example you cited was for a Disrupted unit. Disrupted units are not allowed to Withdraw in any case, and are captured or eliminated if still in Melee. That is a different situation, and is spelled out in A19.12.

If not Disrupted, a broken unit in Melee must attempt to Withdraw from Melee. If it is not able to Withdraw from Melee, it is eliminated at the end of the CCPh, per A11.16. The requirement is that the broken unit Withdraw; failure to do so results in elimination, regardless of the presence of enemy units, or whether the Melee still exists.

That is my opinion.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Treadhead

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Larry said:
So a broken and disrupted unit on top of wire would survive the situation but a plain broken unit would be eliminate for FTR? I don't see how the rules can be read to treat the disrupted unit better than the broken unit. :?
Bummer. It does appear to be the case, however.

Gotta love the ASLRB.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

kazbah_707

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Perhaps that could be interpreted as the broken guys are still actively trying to get away and therefore drawing attention to themselves. The disrupted guys maybe have realized that "playing dead" is the only option left - if the enemy has other targets drawing attention, it may work.

Not sure if that's giving the ASLRB a little too much credit, though.
 
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