Wire hex "extension" and B26.44

[Maurizizio]

Two opponents, two different views. See the picture below, let's suppose there is a Wire in hex Q1, would be a vehicle in R0 being able to bypass hex P1 (bedside P1/Q1) avoiding the Wire MP costs and BOG check?

The doubt came because: A) the rule on Roadblock is quite clear about "extending" the roadblock to adjacent hex obstacle (B29.2); B) an interpretation of B26.44 is that in case the Wire was in P1 (see image below), the vehicle that wanted to bypass P1 Woods would have had to pay the Wire MP cost and roll for BOG.


Any help on this one? Thanks

 

[Eagle4ty]

See Index of Hex and Hexside & 2.3 VEHICULAR BYPASS MOVEMENT (VBM): :

• Hex (the area Inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices): [Location: A2.8] [Normal Stacking_Limits: A5]

• Hexside (one of the six lines which combine to form a Hex; each hexside also contains two vertices):...

• (D2.3) ...The MP cost of VBM is double that of the hex's non-obstacle terrain (usually Open Ground) per hexside traversed;...

Regardless the fact we know the unit actually bypasses the obstacle "in" the adjacent hex (e.g. P1 in this case Fig#1), it still must traverse the hexside to do so. I'm thinking that the prohibition of non-vehicular bypass in such a circumstance (per B26.44) is disallowed because infantry are not allowed to remain in Bypass after their MPh has been completed. Additionally, as much as a hexside is part of a hex and must be traversed if using VBM past an obstacle in an adjacent hex the provision of B25.63 (wire removal by vehicular movement Bog Check) would apply regardless of the fact the unit was bypassing obstacle terrain in the adjacent hex to the wire counter.

 

[semenza]

While this is in relation to Infantry not a vehicle, it does indicate that the wire will probably effect the vehicle in the same situation.


Q). A Woods hex is adjacent to an Open Ground hex. There
is a Wire counter in the open ground hex. Can an infantry
unit
bypass the woods along the hexside shared by the two
hexes?
Thanks,



A). No.
.....Perry

 

[Maurizizio]

Thank you guys. Issue seems to be solved: Wire do extend to the adjacent hex. obstacles.
My Jeep need to find another path

 

[Stewart]

26.44 BYPASS: Non-vehicular Bypass of any hexside that is part of a hex containing Wire is not allowed. VBM is allowed but still requires expenditure of the Wire MP penalty and a Bog Check, although these penalties apply only once per hex (in the first hexside Bypassed)—not per hexside traversed.

 

[Sparafucil3]

26.44 BYPASS: Non-vehicular Bypass of any hexside that is part of a hex containing Wire is not allowed. VBM is allowed but still requires expenditure of the Wire MP penalty and a Bog Check, although these penalties apply only once per hex (in the first hexside Bypassed)—not per hexside traversed.

The issue is the "hex-side" exists in two different hexes. The opponent can rightfully claim to be in the "other" hex and thus the "hexside" being bypassed is not part of a "hex containing Wire". See this Q&A for an example confirming this. -- jim

 

[SSlunt]

While this is in relation to Infantry not a vehicle, it does indicate that the wire will probably effect the vehicle in the same situation.

Sorry for the Necro post but I currently have a question into MMP to specifically question about VBM of a HEX that is adjacent to a Wire Counter (location)
Please note that A4.3 Bypass ONLY relates to infantry movement. It does not reference or should you make any assumptions about how it might relate to VBM - It is related to infantry only. So the sentence that says: ...A hexside forming a part of a Wire Location, or covered by a Water Obstacle (EX: 24L9-M9), may not be Bypassed (B26.44) on either side of the hexside; again only references infantry and should be ignored when talking about VBM.

B26 Wire
in B26.43 Vehicles: ...Fully-tracked vehicles may enter a Wire Location at a cost of two MP plus the COT of the Location and must check for Bog ( bold and italicized by me for emphasize). From this we do know that you must check for BOG if you enter the Wire Location.)

It is B26.44 Bypass ... VBM is allowed but still requires expenditure of the Wire MP penalty and a Bog Check, although these penalties apply only once per hex (in the first hexside Bypassed)—not per hexside traversed. Does it only reference the Wire location - or some arbitrary spot in a hex that shares a hexside

 

[Doug Leslie]

Is the wording of B26.44 not pretty specific?

“26.44 BYPASS: Non-vehicular Bypass of any hexside that is part of a hex containing Wire is not allowed. VBM is allowed but still requires expenditure of the Wire MP penalty and a Bog Check, although these penalties apply only once per hex (in the first hexside Bypassed)—not per hexside traversed.”

If the hexside being bypassed is part of a hex containing wire, a bog check is required. The wire doesn’t have to be in the location being bypassed.

 

[SSlunt]

I say Not true the Wire rules says to worry about rolling a bog check you must enter the wire location.
B26.44 is referring to the Wire location
So are you saying that wire exist in more that one location>
Now consider what a hex side is

At what point does the hexside end? Because what you are saying is that anywhere in the building hex you could not bypass because there is a Hexside that is shared with a wire hex. And if a Hexside is considered both side within multiple hexes you could extrapolate the hex X9 also shares a hexside with the wire hex because the hexside is on both sides.
That is why Hex Side is defined as: One of the six lines which combine to form a hex; and a Hex is defined as Hex: The area inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices.
Where does it say on either side of the Hex side ONLY in A4.3

 

[Doug Leslie]

I say Not true the Wire rules says to worry about rolling a bog check you must enter the wire location.
B26.44 is referring to the Wire location
So are you saying that wire exist in more that one location>
Now consider what a hex side is
View attachment 21556
At what point does the hexside end? Because what you are saying is that anywhere in the building hex you could not bypass because there is a Hexside that is shared with a wire hex. And if a Hexside is considered both side within multiple hexes you could extrapolate the hex X9 also shares a hexside with the wire hex because the hexside is on both sides.
That is why Hex Side is defined as: One of the six lines which combine to form a hex; and a Hex is defined as Hex: The area inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices.
Where does it say on either side of the Hex side ONLY in A4.3

B26.43 refers to the wire location. B26.44 refers to bypass of a hexside.
In the diagram, a vehicle checks for bog if it enters the wire location in X7 or bypasses the X7/X8 hexside.
The wire does not affect any other hexside of X8.

 

[SSlunt]

B26.44 refers to the process of Bypassing of the Wire location not of an adjacent hex.
To you there appears to be an arbitrary spot somewhere in the hex that it stops being a hex side Technically the entire hex shares the hexside with the wire hex so you can not bypass any of the hex.
I think you are trying to relate what A4.3 says about Both sides of the hexside. Again I will say it that A4.3 has NOTHING to do with Vehicle Bypass. You must ignore that rule.

Lets take your concept a little further. Do you think that if you have to take the Bog roll do you have to add the +2 to the Bog Check?
If you roll a 1 on the Bog check do you get to remove the Wire hex?.
If you look at the Bog table is says you add +2 if you Moving into Wire.
There is no wire in the bypass hex? Unless you are stating the wire exists in two separate locations. No where does it say that

B26.53 FULLY-TRACKED VEHICLES: Whenever a fully-tracked vehicle passes a Bog check in a Wire hex, it removes that Wire counter from the hex
So if you do not believe that the B26,44 refers to only the Location with a Wire counter then neither does B26.53
This is a prime example of COWTRAS

Try looking at the rules and ignore A4.3 Look at the Number heading and sequence.

I await Perry Answer to my email which was sent this weekend.

 

[Stewart]

How many bog checks would you take when bypassing the other hexes outside Wire Location hex, assuming all 6 hexsides could be bypassed outside the Wire Hex?

 

[Doug Leslie]

B26.44 refers to the process of Bypassing of the Wire location not of an adjacent hex.
To you there appears to be an arbitrary spot somewhere in the hex that it stops being a hex side Technically the entire hex shares the hexside with the wire hex so you can not bypass any of the hex.
I think you are trying to relate what A4.3 says about Both sides of the hexside. Again I will say it that A4.3 has NOTHING to do with Vehicle Bypass. You must ignore that rule.

Lets take your concept a little further. Do you think that if you have to take the Bog roll do you have to add the +2 to the Bog Check?
If you roll a 1 on the Bog check do you get to remove the Wire hex?.
If you look at the Bog table is says you add +2 if you Moving into Wire.
There is no wire in the bypass hex? Unless you are stating the wire exists in two separate locations. No where does it say that

B26.53 FULLY-TRACKED VEHICLES: Whenever a fully-tracked vehicle passes a Bog check in a Wire hex, it removes that Wire counter from the hex
So if you do not believe that the B26,44 refers to only the Location with a Wire counter then neither does B26.53
This is a prime example of COWTRAS

Try looking at the rules and ignore A4.3 Look at the Number heading and sequence.

I await Perry Answer to my email which was sent this weekend.

B26.44 makes no reference to the wire location at all.

26.44 BYPASS: Non-vehicular Bypass of any hexside that is part of a hex containing Wire is not allowed. VBM is allowed but still requires expenditure of the Wire MP penalty and a Bog Check, although these penalties apply only once per hex (in the first hexside Bypassed)—not per hexside traversed.

Returning to your diagram, X7/X8 is a hexside that is part of a hex containing wire ie X7. The other hexsides of X8 are not. X7/X8 is a shared hexside. Therefore, any VBM penalty applies equally to both hexes that share it. A4.3, while consistent in its application, is not necessary to arrive at this interpretation. The +2 modifier for wire applies to the bog DR.
With regard to the application of B26.53, my interpretation is that the wire would not be removed if the vehicle is bypassing in an adjacent hex as opposed to entering the wire hex itself.

"26.53 FULLY-TRACKED VEHICLES: Whenever a fully-tracked vehicle passes a Bog check in a Wire hex, it removes that Wire counter from the hex if the colored dr of the Bog DR is a 1"

The wire hex in the diagram is X7 and I don't think that the wire can be cleared by a vehicle bypassing in X8.

 

[Doug Leslie]

How many bog checks would you take when bypassing the other hexes outside Wire Location hex, assuming all 6 hexsides could be bypassed outside the Wire Hex?

One, in the first hexside traversed.

 

[Wayne]

Re Bypass, some Hexside rules are kinda about just hexsides.

For example, VBM is prohibited along a hexside if there is a vehicle (or wreck) in the adjacent hex in Bypass along that same hexside [D2.31].

Even if it is a wall hexside,
with ample Bypass clearance
in each hex

[EX: the 10X6/Y7 hexside; 10AA8/BB7 -- (and plenty more in the ASL realm) -- a wreck or a ride in Bypass along either side of those hexsides, say, would prohibit Bypass on the other side of the (wall) hexside there -- however silly that may seem].



It's just the ASL rule.

Re the Wire rule and Bypass, it is plainly stated -- Wire in 10AA6, say, would invoke B26.44 in both 10Z6 and 10AA7 re Bypass (of building Z7) in Z6 and AA7 along that (wall) hexside and adjacent to that Wire -- i.e., Infantry Bypass is NA and VBM is penalized as writ.

I await Perry Answer to my email which was sent this weekend.

Please let us know when you know. Thank you.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Re Bypass, some Hexside rules are kinda about just hexsides.

For example, VBM is prohibited along a hexside if there is a vehicle (or wreck) in the adjacent hex in Bypass along that same hexside [D2.31].

Even if it is a wall hexside,
with ample Bypass clearance
in each hex

[EX: the 10X6/Y7 hexside; 10AA8/BB7 -- (and plenty more in the ASL realm) -- a wreck or a ride in Bypass along either side of those hexsides, say, would prohibit Bypass on the other side of the (wall) hexside there -- however silly that may seem].

View attachment 21559

It's just the ASL rule.

Re the Wire rule and Bypass, it is plainly stated -- Wire in 10AA6, say, would invoke B26.44 in both 10Z6 and 10AA7 re Bypass (of building Z7) in Z6 and AA7 along that (wall) hexside and adjacent to that Wire -- i.e., Infantry Bypass is NA and VBM is penalized as writ.



Please let us know when you know. Thank you.

Agreed, apart from clarifying that a vehicle bypassing along the 10Z6 and 10AA7 hexsides would only take a bog check for the first one.

 

[antony.marsh]

Agreed, apart from clarifying that a vehicle bypassing along the 10Z6 and 10AA7 hexsides would only take a bog check for the first one.

Sorry to bring a new one in. What about bypass movement where a hex is open ground and the adjacent hex is rubble? Cheers

 

[Doug Leslie]

Sorry to bring a new one in. What about bypass movement where a hex is open ground and the adjacent hex is rubble? Cheers

Rubble can’t be bypassed. Woods and buildings only.

 

[antony.marsh]

Oops! I meant bypass in a single building hex, the building itself surrounded by open ground-and an adjacent rubble hex. Cheers

 

[PS NJ]

As a former army engineer, I'm happy roadblocks and wire extend through open ground hexsides to adjacent obstacles.

I do officially object that minefields, AT ditches and trenches don't.

-Paul