Will the real PBF please stand up...

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In the table on PBF ( L) is gives some info:

Not applic if Non stopped, or motion firer/target

First to the easy one.


Thus if the target successfully rolls for motion - the swine - PBF does not apply. Correct ?

Now the more controversial.

In D somewhere
it states that a vehicle that changed its hex can never not be in motion ( the exact same as when a V has the +2 DRM for having moved when firing in the AFPh, and +2 for AFPh) .

Thus any V that shimmies up to an enemy AFV rear (or otherwise) wont be getting PBF either.

Which basically reserves it for a close quarters slugfest...

In summary, ANYTHING that ( if successfully rolling for motion is considered motion) moved won't be getting PBF.

Thanks
 

WuWei

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I once learned that a vehicle isn't considered "in motion" during its own MPh. It can be non-stopped and perhaps moving(?), but is not "in motion". But I can't give a rules reference at the moment.
 

Eagle4ty

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If you have Out Of The Attic 2 or ASL Annual 96 read Stop & Go Traffic by Ole Boe. Though a few minor things have changed since its publication it's the very best explanation of Moving, Motion & Non-stopped status that I have ever read. Until I read this article vehicle status was always just a bit fuzzy and puzzling and required constant rule reviews to ensure I got it right in my head. It is in my estimation, one of the very best articles ever published on ASL in general and use of vehicles in ASL in particular.
 

aneil1234

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Eagle and I are in 100% agreement here
Stop and Go is one of the most insightful ASL things anywhere put to paper
I still refer back to it when I am teaching the newbies

Articles (My opinion obviously)
1/ Stop and Go - Best by far
2/ Smoke gets in your eyes
3/ Bring on the night
and they are all very close in quality - informative and set it out so that it can just be understood by anyone

And I'm pretty sure ALL of them are in out of the attic

Ps Honourable mention to the Supremely funny spoof one about The 9-1 (or was he an 8-1) Sarge and his crazy gang with Meatball (The manditory US soldier of Italian extraction in rule A43.12657)
lols
Damn wish I could remember the name
 

Sparafucil3

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I once learned that a vehicle isn't considered "in motion" during its own MPh. It can be non-stopped and perhaps moving(?), but is not "in motion". But I can't give a rules reference at the moment.
In "it's" MPh, a vehicle is either Stopped or non-Stopped. It is the "moving unit" (i.e. the unit conducting it's MPh) but it may not be a "moving target" for TH purposes. A non-Stopped vehicle is one that has not spent a Stop MP since it's last Start MP (it could also stop if it Bogs, becomes Immobilized, etc). If a Vehicle begins it's MPh in Motion, it is non-Stopped and a Moving Target for TH purposes. If a vehicle begins it's MPh Stopped, it is not a moving Target until it enters a new hex or bypasses a new hex-side. Once it is non-Stopped, PB modifiers do not apply (for either the moving unit or the Defending unit). -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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Articles
1/ Stop and Go - Best by far
2/ Smoke gets in your eyes
3/ Bring on the night
Well, the BEST is the Medrow Article on Infantry. After that, Carl Nogiuera's Crosstown Traffic is the article I learned the most from and is perhaps the single best article ever written (just don't tell Carl I said that). I remember proofing that and sitting a VASL room with myself, Carl, and a few others and all of us reading sections of that going "Wait, what?". I forget what Journal it was in, but that article alone was worth the price of admission. -- jim

Edit to add: The article is in Journal 8. If you haven't bought the PDF's of Journals, this article alone is worth the cost of the Journals.
 

Philippe D.

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This type of article is IMHO the best one can write about the game - someone digests a somewhat tricky set of rule and rewrites it more clearly for you, in a non-reference but also more focused way.

That, and some comments on the tactical implications. Not as important because a good number are a simple consequence of a good understanding of the rules, but if all tactical points were obvious, I'd be much better at this game. And my opponents would too, si it's not even sure I'd win more...
 
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Once it is non-Stopped, PB modifiers do not apply (for either the moving unit or the Defending unit)

This seems to agree with my thought.

So. anything that moved - ex if a v that rolls for motion is still stationary - no PBF is possible.

To be clear, an enemy AFV parks itself behind your immobile AFV.

No PBF.
 

The Purist

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No. If you stop at one or two hex range then the PBF modifiers apply. You still get +2 for having 'moved' but this can be countered by PBF.

See C6.3 - "...unless the firing at a Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle or Motorcycle Rider..."

Once you expend a Stop MP you are neither in Motion nor Non-Stopped.

"Stop and Go Traffic" is the best read for AFV movement. "Panzer Gegen Panzer" is a must read for AFV combat.
 
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Any vehicle that moved to a new hex cannot get PBF.

The table is pretty straightforward on that.
It talks about the attacker and defender in this.
 

The Purist

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No, the rules do not state that. C6.3 is clear enough. If you are "Stopped" then PBF applies.

You can run up to a staqtionary enemy tank at 1 hex range, stop, declare a bounding fire shot and get PBF as per the rule (along with other DR mods). If you survive any defensive fire and have MP left, you can start up again and become a Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle again.

Edit: Likewise, if you are the defender and an enemy tank comes roaring up to your tank and expends a "stop MP" at one or two hex range, your Def First Fire shot would get PBF provided you are not In Motion.
 
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aneil1234

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Oberst Mate

Once BOTH Vehicles are STOPPED then PB applies.
The rule C6.3 is as you said quite clear when it says "" unless firing at a motion/non-stop vehicle"" and later on ""and or the firer is in motion/non-stopped/aerial.""
Nowhere does it say that this applies when case C is in effect, which is "" the bounding firer bit""

Point blank also doesn't apply if using area target type or firing at your own hex including aerial targets (which by default aren't actually in your own hex)

Hope this helps
 
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Are you trying to say there is no lettuce in the salad? Bounding fire is INTEGRAL to the whole discussion.

In any event it seems to go like this.

Any AFV that has a motion counter on it ( is still moving) - at the end of its its MPh is immune AND/or
Any AFV that makes a successful motion attempt ( remembering that the enemy AFV cannot have been in LOS b4) is immune

Thus a T34 can BFF on a parked AFV and get PBF unless the said dumbass does not make a successful motion attempt. As a side issue getting out of a LOS also wipes acq- so 2 benefits for 1.


Further comments welcome...
 

Vinnie

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Yup, that's it. You stop and the target is stopped BP modifiers apply.
You start the movement phase in motion, scoot out of line of sight and nip round the back of your target and stop. Get Point Blank fire if he has already shot at you and missed.
Try it with a Jackson sometime, 24 MP are nasty.
Nip round the back of a Jadgpanther and he either turns to face you prior to your stop or loses the gun duel. Thus you get a hit in his rear with only a +1 modifier (+4 moved, -2 point blank-1 size) while he is looking at +6 (+2 moved, +4 3 hexspines, +1BU).
If you managed to persuade him to use his BMG prior to your move, you're laughing.
 

The Purist

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As noted by aneil1234 and Rule C6.3, a tank using Bounding Fire can use PBF provided both vehicles are "Stopped". If either vehicle is "In Motion" or "Non-Stopped" then PBF does not apply.

That is why a "Motion Attempt" is so important to a less capable defending tank.
 

jyoung

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@Vinnie, I am happy with the rules around PBF and Motion/Non-Stopped etc, but still learning to use AFVs to their full potential. Was your comment about getting the Jagdpanther to fire its BMG prior to your movement just about avoiding the point-blank MG attack on your open-topped Jackson, or is there more to it?
 
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aneil1234

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By using your BMG at another vehicle you get to turn your virtually unbeatable armour towards the bad guys. You just have to pick exactly the right moment to do it
i.e they drive up thinking the have a nice rear/flank shot at you and you turn to face them and its too late for them to react
A lot of working out who gets to shoot first etc.
But it might just save your valuable JP 🆒
 

Vinnie

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@Vinnie, I am happy with the rules around PBF and Motion/Non-Stopped etc, but still learning to use AFVs to their full potential. Was your comment about getting the Jagdpanther to fire its BMG prior to your movement just about avoiding the point-blank MG attack on your open-topped Jackson, or is there more to it?
Pretty ,such as @aneil1234 said.
The key is timing the turn. When facing a swift, open topped vehicle, if you turn too early, you risk him continuing round to your blind side. If you turn too late, he gets first shot in as your side before you can bear.
Of course, the chance of a hit may be small (+4 for him having moved)but add in point blank and large target and it's often a 9 or less needed.
 
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