Why do you think people identify so much with the German Army?

Honza

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It is so common; that gamers start identifying with and preferring the German Army of WWII. It gets on some peoples nerves and they complain about it; but I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the German politics of Nazism. Almost all gamers hate Nazism yet they have a soft spot for German soldiers. It is apparent in history books too. That the book is written from the German POV.

So why? Does the predicament that the Germans found themselves in strike a chord? Desperation, fanaticism, skill, die hard, heat of battle....etc etc. Are these the qualities we see in the Germans of WWII? I reckon that gamers respect the German Army for its military achievements and skill as soldiers and that it has nothing to do with National Socialism or politics at all. If the Russians or British or whoever had done the same thing all those years ago then they would have the same reputation now as the Germans have somehow gained.
 

Robin Reeve

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I hope that this thread won't degenerate, as that sort of question can trigger conflictual debates.
The particularity of the Germans. for me, is their toys - especially armour and planes.
In my case, the discovery of nice toys in the Allied armies has sensibly reduced my impression that the Germans were that exceptional.

Another factor can be that people are interested in losers who made a show of tough fighting - quite like the CSA in the ACW. But this is relative, as Japanese don't seem to generate the same "fascination".
 

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My fascination for the German army started as soon as I first became aware of the war. I believe I was in fifth grade, and our class was shown a film about World War Two. I was fascinated that Germany would have the audacity to take on the whole world. I started eating it up.

Then of course there is the whole mystique surrounding the "Tiger" and the "King Tiger" and the "Panther". Exciting stuff to a kid. Now add the whole East Front drama, all of the supposedly brave and skilled military exploits in fending off the Russian hordes... And you have to admit, the Germans have some of the coolest uniforms. I think it is easy for a young person to get swept up in all of that.

Nowadays I don't have a particular preference. But even after understanding the political and military history, I think some of that early appeal never really goes away.


I don't wish to over-simplify, but at a very base level, I think the appeal of the playing as the Germans is because they lost, and because they have the coolest uniforms and the most notorious weapons and formations.
 

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From a professional point of view, they were the most professional modern army we have ever seen, they were not perfect by any means but thier tactical ability was beyond reproach. The way they took on board the concepts of combined arms and gave it a Germanic twist to achieve a very effective way of fighting was ground breaking (pincehed off of us brits and to a certain extent the Russians), open mobile warfare was thier thing, up close they were not overly good (the German soldier tried to keep away from close combat as much as possible, although some SS units did not mind it). In general the german soldier did not overly rate American or British troops, but had a grudging sort of admiration for the Russian soldier after the first year in Russia.
They classed us Brits as good on the defence but not very aggressive in the attack and to stuck on doctrine, and in general they were versy dismissive of British Officers and thier tactical ability.
The American soldier except the Airborne troops they generally looked down on and classed as sloppy, and easy to deal with even when outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1.
War to them was not a game, it was serious business, they were not supermen, but damn if they did not teach us a few things about warfare, on the losing side or no, they made us fight for every last bit of ground.

I try to stay away from the political side of it as it inflames alot of people, and I have the ability to look at an army like the German army in ww2 and look at it for what it was out side of that, an efficant fighting machine, that even when pushed beyond breaking point, could and did hold the line and made thier opponants work for it.
 

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Only guesswork:

Usually most people flock as fans to the most professional sports teams (be it soccer, basketball, football, etc.). Probably, the most professional army of World War II was the German army. Add to that the "cool" gadgets. And maybe even results of effective propaganda that in part seem to persist to this day: As has been pointed out, the German uniforms had appeal (more so that the current ones of the Bundeswehr for that matter). The Nazis were pretty good at presenting their armed forces in the way they wanted it to be perceieved.

Nowadays, probably most people wanted to "play" the US and not the Syrian Army or the Afghans.
Looking at Star Wars, it's Darth Vader, who is cool. Not Leia...

Likely, the same mechanisms in all cases. I don't think there's much "magic" behind the OP's question.

von Marwitz
 

kylania

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they were the most professional modern army we have ever seen
For me this was a big part of it. Especially with regards to the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe there are many stories of honor with regards to the actions the soldiers. For instance the Laconia incident where U-156 torpedoed a ship and against orders rescued the survivors or the story of pilot Franz Steigler, who with one more bomber kill would have been awarded the coveted Knight's Cross medal, instead escorted a badly damaged B-17 out to sea and safety.

Really though, it's the style. Never been a better dressed army before or since. :)
 

Gunner Scott

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Wow that was quick, Herr Pitmann and his trusty sidekick swifty chiming in on this thread, what a surprise.......not.


Scott
 

Nineteen Kilo

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It is so common; that gamers start identifying with and preferring the German Army of WWII. It gets on some peoples nerves and they complain about it; but I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the German politics of Nazism. Almost all gamers hate Nazism yet they have a soft spot for German soldiers. It is apparent in history books too. That the book is written from the German POV.

So why? Does the predicament that the Germans found themselves in strike a chord? Desperation, fanaticism, skill, die hard, heat of battle....etc etc. Are these the qualities we see in the Germans of WWII? I reckon that gamers respect the German Army for its military achievements and skill as soldiers and that it has nothing to do with National Socialism or politics at all. If the Russians or British or whoever had done the same thing all those years ago then they would have the same reputation now as the Germans have somehow gained.
As others have said there is a certain grudging admiration for what the German Army achieved and all the cool AFV's they come with. Also for me as a child of the 70's with the Cold War going on, anybody that went toe to toe with the Soviets had to be admired.

Still for all that, the countries I have always gravitated toward in wargames from the start were France and the Allied Minors. While just a 'speed bump' in history, I loved the fact that they took on the 'bad guys' at long odds.
19K
 

Martin Mayers

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My fascination for the German army started as soon as I first became aware of the war. I believe I was in fifth grade, and our class was shown a film about World War Two. I was fascinated that Germany would have the audacity to take on the whole world. I started eating it up.

Then of course there is the whole mystique surrounding the "Tiger" and the "King Tiger" and the "Panther". Exciting stuff to a kid. Now add the whole East Front drama, all of the supposedly brave and skilled military exploits in fending off the Russian hordes... And you have to admit, the Germans have some of the coolest uniforms. I think it is easy for a young person to get swept up in all of that.

Nowadays I don't have a particular preference. But even after understanding the political and military history, I think some of that early appeal never really goes away.


I don't wish to over-simplify, but at a very base level, I think the appeal of the playing as the Germans is because they lost, and because they have the coolest uniforms and the most notorious weapons and formations.
I preferred the story of the British during WW2 to be honest. Still do.
 

Jazz

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All the usual suspects flocking to a thread that the original poster should have known better than to start.....<sigh>.

Its damn near Pavlovian......off to Chit-Chat you go....
 

Gunner Scott

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And yet you keep a thread about Prince in the main forum, opps I forgot, the guy who started it is from your buddy. At least this thread had more to do with WWII then the Prince thread.

Scott

All the usual suspects flocking to a thread that the original poster should have known better than to start.....<sigh>.

Its damn near Pavlovian......off to Chit-Chat you go....
 

Jazz

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And yet you keep a thread about Prince in the main forum, opps I forgot, the guy who started it is from your buddy. At least this thread had more to do with WWII then the Prince thread.

Scott
Point me at it Scott. I don't bother to read most of the posts here unless someone calls my attention to it.

<edit>
Now that I actually found it, at the very least it talks about ASL game terms (if not seriously), which this thread does not.
<shrug>
 
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Honza

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All the usual suspects flocking to a thread that the original poster should have known better than to start.....<sigh>..
The trouble with NOT talking about taboo is that it starts to fester and breed. It is better to have it all out in the open. IMO.
 

Gunner Scott

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I'm sure herr pitmann and his trusty sidekick swifty sent over a 100 PM's to the mods to have it removed. Anything positive about the German Army will get the ire of certain individuals.

Scott

The trouble with NOT talking about taboo is that it starts to fester and breed. It is better to have it all out in the open. IMO.
 

Jazz

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The trouble with NOT talking about taboo is that it starts to fester and breed. It is better to have it all out in the open. IMO.
Then post the damn thing in Chit-Chat where it belongs if it does not have to do with the game.....which this does not. History? Yes. Game? No.
 

Paul M. Weir

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I may be wrong but there wasn't the same fascination with the WW1 German Army in the interwar years, even though they were probably the best on a per man level.

I think a good bit is the remnant Cold War mentality where "those sons of bïtches" became "our sons of bïtches". Too many (ex-?) Nazi generals writing self serving memoirs, glossing over their war crimes and operational or gross strategic mistakes. It wasn't all Hitler's mistakes against the advice of "the professionals", there were times like Winter '41 where he was right and they were wrong.

There is a certain turning of the tide in that those who go a little more than skin deep in WW2 history learn that the popular view of WW2 Germany and its armed forces in very deficient. At a tactical and most operational levels the Germans were superior most of the time. At the strategic level they were as dumb as ditch water. The prime example was Barbarossa. There was no clear strategic plan with simple objectives, just a triplet of operational plans. Whether concentrating on Moscow should or should not have been the plan is another question, but they did not decide whether to until far too late in the campaign. A bit like walking through a zombie infested shopping mall, slaughtering most, without even checking where the exits were or if there were any open at all. At the highest operational level they could be hit or miss. Definitely by mid '43 they got out thought by the Soviets and by '44 by the Western Allies at the highest operational level.

They had many sexy toys, far, far too many different ones. Taking just production during the times when the countries were actually at war, the Soviets managed with 4 light tanks (T-40, T-50, T-60, T-70/T-80), 1 medium (T-34) and 2 heavy tank (KV, IS) series. The Germans had 2 light (Pz II F, Pz II L, unrelated except name and gun), 4 medium (Pz 38(t), Pz III, Pz IV, Pz V) and 2 heavy tanks (Pz VI E and Pz VI B). The US got away with 2 light (M3/M5 which had so much in common that they can be considered one (like the Soviet T-70/T-80), M24), 2 medium (M3, M4 series) and 2 heavy (M6 no service, M26). Of the major armour powers only the UK produced more types. Germany even reduced arms and ammo production and released many troops back to industry after the fall of France.

Germany produced in addition a mind boggling number of prototypes and low production other AFV, which it could not afford, unlike the US which could. While the Soviets had 4 light tanks, 2 of them (T-40, T-50) were dropped tout suite once war hit the USSR and the other two (T-60, T-70/T-80) and their components, like engines, could be produced in factories that were not capable of anything heavier. So the Soviets might be forgiven given their desperate '41-'43 situation. And of course too many things (German) were over engineered or on the other hand had component (engines, transmissions, etc) designs that were fine for the original intended design but insufficient for the actual production versions (eg Pz V).

The competing feudal factions in the Nazi state and the underutilisation of industrial capability in the first 2-3 years make me wonder sometimes whether the Nazis even wanted to win, it was so bad. The series of self inflicted production wounds and gross strategic stupidity tempt me into going Full Metal Pitman when I hear about the "wonders" of the German armed forces.

The old adage of the German Army "being good at winning battles but dreadful at winning wars" is so close to the truth.
 

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Personally I like the Russians. They did not take any BS from anyone. And while Stalin did his purges, I honestly think that they needed to have a ruthless leader. Zukov
was the same, totally ruthless. But to get their army to where it was in 44-45 they had to become ruthless, their very survival depended on it. The German army was the best in the world, one on one no single country could touch them. It took the Russians to basically offer themselves up as a sacrifice to hold them , stop them and beat them.
 

aiabx

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When I was a kid, I have to admit I was fascinated by German tanks and planes. They just seemed cooler and better than the Allied gear.
But the shine came off the cool weapons as I started to understand who the baddies were.
 
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