Why do you buy Critical Hit products? (anonymous poll)

Why do you buy Critical Hit products? (please select up to THREE answers)

  • I am more or less a completist and just can't help myself.

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • I believe that Critical Hit makes high quality products.

    Votes: 6 6.6%
  • I can't help buying a CH product if it is on a subject that interests me.

    Votes: 33 36.3%
  • I get entranced by the counters and/or maps.

    Votes: 26 28.6%
  • I generally just use them as game kits for design your own scenarios.

    Votes: 8 8.8%
  • I mostly play solitaire and things like balance don't matter to me.

    Votes: 19 20.9%
  • The errata, development and playtesting issues, real or alleged, simply are not a big deal to me.

    Votes: 12 13.2%
  • Sometimes I just want to spend money on ASL.

    Votes: 12 13.2%
  • It is easier to find Critical Hit products than some other ASL-related products.

    Votes: 6 6.6%
  • They do products on esoteric subjects.

    Votes: 39 42.9%
  • Critical Hit products can't be as bad as people say they are

    Votes: 9 9.9%
  • I don't really know why; I just keep buying them.

    Votes: 3 3.3%

  • Total voters
    91

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
A lot more people buy Critical Hit products than will openly admit it, so I have put together an anonymous poll designed to help me understand the reason(s) why. Obviously, if you are willing to talk about it openly, I am interested in you posting here to elaborate upon your choices.
 

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,868
Reaction score
2,631
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
It is a valid question IMO.

If the subject is interesting I'll buy it and use it as a game kit to expand my ASL experience. For either DYO scenarios or to modify published scenarios.
 

macrobo

King of Boxcars
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,266
Reaction score
622
Location
Geelong Melbourne
First name
Rob
Country
llAustralia
Dear All

Just to break my own record, I will do two posts in the one day!!! no in all seriousness - Mark needs an answer so I will try and satisfy him since
Mark is an excellent chap for all the work he does and time he takes to help the hobby, may be curious and probably wants to know that his reviews are useful
My only one wish is that I could get good enough to offer him a challenging game - I always feel like it would be challenging a chess master so I will need to be prepared for a big LOSS but with lots of advice I am sure

I will now declare a potential "death Statement" - I do play, buy and like CH products..................why?

Now - what does that mean

Do I buy everything - NO Not a fan of the WWI stuff or the super big hexes (I play VASL mainly) as examples
Do I get caught and accidentally double up buying the same product when I don't look carefully - Yes (I send those products to friends so its a nice gift for those who can't afford something so no biggy in the end)
DO I have to work hard when I try and play their products - sometimes YES!! and it can frustrate
DO I have people refuse to Play CH - YES but there are other "hard" TPP products out there so no different to me
Do I have some CH games that were just fabulous to play- Yes
Do I have ones that are a bit hard to figure something on - Yes
DO I like some of the things they write - Yes (particularly that article from Scott on hedgerows - I got a lot from that - thank you Scott

CH I think in a way is needed to provide the hobby with enough competition that MMP has to keep up the products and the ideas (they are also seemingly nice people too)

Now that I am on such thin ice - Please forgive me for stamping on it but...

Three examples of where they help (but you have to work with the products):

The release of Tarawa from CH - (working through this now) means that at least for those who don't have the original there is now a product to buy - that may make MMP think twice about the fact its out of print

The release of Maxim Gorgi - hard product with some VC's need adjustment - showcases a very hard difficult theater of operations and battle- per se

The Omaha products (with teh help of others) are fun to play and may have helped MMP see the market for this out there

My thoughts

Rob :clown:
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
While I have totally gone off CH in the last 4-5 years, I would have picked "They do products on esoteric subjects." as the main reason followed by "I mostly play solitaire and things like balance don't matter to me." and "The errata, development and playtesting issues, real or alleged, simply are not a big deal to me." when I still bought them.

The switch to map panels, really, really blatant copying and the recent profusion of good quality alternative ASL items on top of the earlier quality issues all combined to collapse my CH interest.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
missing from the poll:

my choice #1 - they publish on topics of interest that are left behind by others:
Leatherneck packs
Bandenkrieg
PantherLine Narva '44
just to name a few.

my choice #2: They once in while get a full and complete submission and manage to publish it to the delight of all:

Those Ragged Bloody Heroes
Soldiers of the Negus
Peleliu White Beach One
Gembloux the Feint

Just to name a few.

my choice #3: They manage to coordinate whatever they coordinate to get rights to re-publish long out of print TPP stuff so a new generation of players can enjoy it as well:

Baraque De Fraiture comes immediately to mind for this; Rout Packs from the old Rout Reports; On All Fronts Packs from the old OAF magazines.


Finally, they once in a blue moon get a hold of an original idea and decide to publish it, even when others refuse and/or back out

Kurt Martin's Arnhem Third Bridge comes to mind here, just to name one, Mark Porterfield's Berlin is another. Dave Lamb's Mamayev Kurgan is a third. Brian Martuzas' Counterattacks 1 and 2 is another.

and all of that occurs at a frequency of publishing WAAAYYY faster than any TPP pipeline or MMP's pipeline.

The price, a lot of errors minor to major -and a lot of blown ideas that could have been good, but in the end just fizzled.

CH is a minefield. If you do the homework in advance, however, you'll not get burned and you won't throw dollars away on crappy stuff.


If you're going to construct a poll - you should at least try to not be so dammed biased in the answers you provide. We get it, you dislike CH stuff and Ray. I think that comes through loud and clear in every review you have ever written about their products, and every discussion you have participated in online about CH or RT.

Why not just make a poll "Do you hate CH stuff or Ray as much as I do: Yes or No?" It would be far simpler and take up a lot less time than this poor camouflage effort did.
 

bprobst

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
1,437
Location
Melbourne, Australia
First name
Bruce
Country
llAustralia
I have an answer that doesn't seem to be represented by any of the poll options. I will, very occasionally, purchase a CH product -- but only under 3 conditions:

(i) It must be second-hand, or at a fire-sale price (i.e., nowhere near what CH would normally ask for it, and ideally CH will never see a cent of my money).

(ii) It must have a decent reputation (in terms of play value). They do exist!

(iii) It must otherwise fit within my ASL interests. In general, I'm not looking for HASL maps that I'll use once, or new counters/rules, or "esoteric" subject matter -- and that's not a condition I apply solely to CH, it guides all of my 3rd-party purchases these days.

By-and-large, that boils down to scenario packs that have stood the test of time. I have, I think, now got all, or nearly all, of the products from CH that qualify, and judging by the pattern of their releases over the last couple of years, I doubt that there'll be any future products that will spark my interest.
 

hayman

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
677
Reaction score
266
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
I answered: can't help buying on a subject that interests me; I play solitaire so balance isn't imperative; & products on esoteric subjects.

Years ago I bought Third Bridge, Gembloux, etc. as they were the only 'modules' that covered those areas. I also bought a few of the CH magazines.

I think the older players forget that CH was one of the few third party providers for our hobby at a time when their was very little coming out of AH except the (often late) Annuals.

Recently I bought the first edition CH Spanish Civil War module from a U.S. dealer (along with $20 worth of updated CH counter sheets from their Condor Legion) so as to be able to expand my SCW scenario collection (le Franc Tireur mag being out of print!).

I haven't bought any recent releases from CH due to the lack of the 'bang-for-my-buck' that most consumers are complaining about. Regardless of counter sheets included, I'm not paying $7- $8 per scenario when I own hundreds of scenarios yet to be played, and have purchased them for $2- $5 on average over the years.
 

bis

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
95
Reaction score
30
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
One of the recent discussions about Critical Hit brought up discount coupons.
Now I haven't bought anything from CH since I got a couple items I preordered that came with the map panels.
But I was thinking I'm interested in Operation Olive maybe at 30% off I'd consider it.
So I looked around the CH web site for something cheap to buy that would get me on the CH mailing list again.
I found the winterized maps for the Spanish project they did, so I ordered them. Paid with PayPal.
Two weeks go by and I get an email from PayPal they are withdrawing payment from my bank account.
So I email them that I didn't receive my merchandise. They contact CH. Ray cancels my order.
I guess Ray doesn't want me to waste any of my money on shitty Critical Hit products any more either.
What a dope.
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
I hear ya buddy, The only thing I ordered this year is that St lo map pack and the Waffen SS counter set. I did receive CH Annual 3 free for doing a couple of articles for RT. The problem, even with the discount codes is that the stuff is still too expensive and I do not like the map panels. If anybody ordered the Tarawa module and does not mind sending me pdf's of the scenarios, that would be kool. Would like to compare them with the official BRT scenarios. I like some of the stuff CH does but not all of it.

Scott


One of the recent discussions about Critical Hit brought up discount coupons.
Now I haven't bought anything from CH since I got a couple items I preordered that came with the map panels.
But I was thinking I'm interested in Operation Olive maybe at 30% off I'd consider it.
So I looked around the CH web site for something cheap to buy that would get me on the CH mailing list again.
I found the winterized maps for the Spanish project they did, so I ordered them. Paid with PayPal.
Two weeks go by and I get an email from PayPal they are withdrawing payment from my bank account.
So I email them that I didn't receive my merchandise. They contact CH. Ray cancels my order.
I guess Ray doesn't want me to waste any of my money on shitty Critical Hit products any more either.
What a dope.
 

Alan Hume

Elder Member
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
1,911
Reaction score
783
Location
EDINBURGH
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I haven't really ever bought much from CH, just the 'guide to tanks' book a while back and now the Waffen SS counterset but
they haven't done anything to upset me, far from it, their customer service has been superb and they even gave me a discount AFTER I ordered when I mentioned that I didn't notice the discount code in their weekly emails

only complaint I have is that shipping to the UK from the US is a real bugger those days but that's not their fault
 

RRschultze

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Messages
474
Reaction score
299
Location
Chester, UK
First name
Ian
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I like their stuff, love the map panel boards and their counters in my opinion with the excepetion of BPF are the best.

Like Alan mentions, shipping to the UK is expensive
 

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
2,132
Reaction score
1,393
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
I didn't reply to the poll, because I no longer buy any CH products, nor would consider it. CH's reputation (and not only as conveyed by Mark) is just too bad, and I don't want to encourage bad practices with my money.

Several years ago, my top reply would have been something like the "completist" - back before buying on the internet was the norm, I would by anything ASL-related in my favorite gaming stores, and I do have a fair number of old CH stuff.
 

goatleaf

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
116
Reaction score
34
Location
Dorset, UK
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I don't see why this is a great mystery. Sure, the criticisms of CH are well known but that's not going to deter myself and many others from buying those CH items that are good and that are not available from other sellers. So for example, if you want the full OOB of a nationality in colour as opposed to 2 tone; if you want to play on historical maps with mega hexes such as Berlin and Omaha; if you want a map of Tarawa without a chunk of the island missing. When you consider just how much stuff CH produces, statistics alone dictates that some items will be good. Only messianic doctrinally driven purists will bar themselves, and constantly try to deter others, from buying them.
 

PabloGS

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2004
Messages
836
Reaction score
289
Location
Santiago de Chile
Country
llChile
I remember buying CH products in only three instances.

1- Back in 1998, when I was getting started and knew nothing of anything ASL-related, I bought Gembloux and the All-American pack.
2- Back in 2003, when I knew a bit more and was building up my set, I bought a few Hero packs because they seemed cool, and Spanish Civil War + Dien Bien Phu because of the topics.
3- More recently, I scored a Soldiers of the Negus in anticipation of MMP's re-release.

As of today, I only keep 3-. I am not planning on buying CH going forward. I am not sure how this would fit in the poll.
 

thedrake

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
1,401
Reaction score
543
Location
Picayune, MS
Country
llUnited States
For me,will buy certain CH products if they interest me and will mostly play them solo. I also make sure to find out as much as I can about any product before buying. And a few of the CH products I have enjoyed immensely ( Platoon Leader 1.0 , Pointe du Hoc, Berlin,Nordwind.)
 

Dagney

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
37
Reaction score
8
Location
Canberra
Country
llAustralia
Have bought two CH products over the years, becuase the subjects were of interest to me (and I prefer campaign style maps over the generic ones) - Stonne, and Berlin - Fall of the 3rd Reich. Played some of the Berlin campaign and have to say it was fun. Really didn't like the counters though - the layout was not particularly good.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,357
Reaction score
10,205
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
I have an answer that doesn't seem to be represented by any of the poll options. I will, very occasionally, purchase a CH product -- but only under 3 conditions:

(i) It must be second-hand, or at a fire-sale price (i.e., nowhere near what CH would normally ask for it, and ideally CH will never see a cent of my money).

(ii) It must have a decent reputation (in terms of play value). They do exist!

(iii) It must otherwise fit within my ASL interests. In general, I'm not looking for HASL maps that I'll use once, or new counters/rules, or "esoteric" subject matter -- and that's not a condition I apply solely to CH, it guides all of my 3rd-party purchases these days.

By-and-large, that boils down to scenario packs that have stood the test of time. I have, I think, now got all, or nearly all, of the products from CH that qualify, and judging by the pattern of their releases over the last couple of years, I doubt that there'll be any future products that will spark my interest.
This.

I never bought any CH stuff at full retail value. I first came in touch with CH via tournament scenarios (indeed there were some decent ones in early scenario packs by good designers).

von Marwitz

von Marwitz
 

hayesncsu

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
163
Reaction score
135
Location
North Carolina
First name
Hayes
Country
llUnited States
I have only purchased their products through Gamers Armory so I cannot speak to customer service. As far as the products I enjoyed playing through the Kharkov pack. Is it balanced? No. But it's fun and the map and counters are interesting. I;ve got other packs, mostly for the amusement of checking out the maps and scenarios and they will probably not seem much play.

At the end of the day I appreciate Mark's advice and wisdom. If folks want to purchase products with this fair warning then more power to us/them also! Thanks for the interesting poll and posts.
 
Top