Why are the French against a war in Iraq ?

tigersqn

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Why indeed.

Over the last 12 years the French government has, off and on, attempted to get sanctions against Iraq lifted.
Why is this ?

Well France already has an economic stake in Iraq.
They provided assistance, along with China, in developing a new air defence system. But over and above that, French companies have signed contracts over the years with Iraq to develop and expand the oil fields once sanctions are lifted.

The French know very well that if the Coalition invade Iraq all those contracts will not be worth the paper they're written on. How better to protect their investment than to counter any US move to attack ?
 

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Originally posted by tigersqn
Why indeed.

Over the last 12 years the French government has, off and on, attempted to get sanctions against Iraq lifted.
Why is this ?

Well France already has an economic stake in Iraq.
They provided assistance, along with China, in developing a new air defence system. But over and above that, French companies have signed contracts over the years with Iraq to develop and expand the oil fields once sanctions are lifted.

The French know very well that if the Coalition invade Iraq all those contracts will not be worth the paper they're written on. How better to protect their investment than to counter any US move to attack ?
Or perhaps the French believe that the actions of ONE criminally negligent man should not mean the suffering of 22 MILLION people.
 

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Re: Re: Why are the French against a war in Iraq ?

Originally posted by markoy


Or perhaps the French believe that the actions of ONE criminally negligent man should not mean the suffering of 22 MILLION people.

but this argument is irrelevant since there would be minimal civilian casualties in a campaign against Iraq. Also, whatever civilians die would surely be millions less than those would be killed if Saddam remains in power. The French and others are "enablers" of Saddam. Even though their intentions may be good they are indirectly enabling him to go on killing his people.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Why are the French against a war in Iraq ?

Originally posted by kid kool



but this argument is irrelevant since there would be minimal civilian casualties in a campaign against Iraq. Also, whatever civilians die would surely be millions less than those would be killed if Saddam remains in power. The French and others are "enablers" of Saddam. Even though their intentions may be good they are indirectly enabling him to go on killing his people.
So what is irrelevant about having your home destroyed and your pregnant sister blown to pieces ? What is irrelevant about an estimated 10,000 civilian casulaties and 500,000 homeless ? More civilians die due to sanctions than Saddam has ever killed.
 

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Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38


Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that’s an increase of 345%)


Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million


Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000
 

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Iraqi death toll doesn't add up
Sanctions imposed 12 years ago blamed for a million fatalities

Matt Welch
National Post

LOS ANGELES - The headline in this Sunday's Albany Times Union was a sobering slap in the face to those armchair strategists breezily debating a new invasion of Iraq:

"Sanctions killing Iraq civilians, UN says 1 million -- half children under 5 -- have died for want of food and safe water."

The article was from the Gannett News Service, a wire that feeds a chain of 94 newspapers across the United States.

Coming as it did during a week in which plans concerning Iraq dominated political discussion, the news could not have been more timely. Too bad it was wrong.

Because Saddam Hussein's government blocks any real independent inquiry, no one really knows how many civilians have died as a direct result of United Nations sanctions, which were originally imposed 12 years ago this past Tuesday in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

But it is possible to declare, with some precision, that the UN has never said sanctions have killed 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of five.

This may surprise readers of just about every newspaper in North America, who are long accustomed to letters to the editor and left-of-centre columnists claiming, in the words of the Hartford Courant's Susan Campbell on June 30, "According to UNICEF, a half-million children and toddlers have died since 1990 as a direct result of the sanctions."

That 500,000 number -- and its corollary, the 5,000 Iraqi children who are said to be dying from sanctions each month -- have proven to be remarkably resilient since first appearing on the scene in 1995. As Washington prepares for a war based on Baghdad's flouting of this very same sanctions regime (which was high on Osama Bin Laden's list of grievances aired after the Sept. 11 massacre), it's worth trying to figure out who is closer to the truth: critics, such as former UN Humanitarian Co-ordinator Denis Haliday, who characterize the policy as "genocide"; or supporters, such as The New Republic magazine, who argue that claims of the sanctions' terrible effects are false.

When people calculate child mortality among the under-fives in Iraq, the measuring unit is the gruesome euphemism of "excess deaths" -- the number of children who died "in excess" of what could be expected in "normal" times.

This immediately begs two questions that are seldom asked: What is "normal," and how can you assign specific responsibility for the excess deaths? (A list of candidates for the latter would include: sanctions, drought, hospital policy, breast-feeding education, destruction from the Iran-Iraq and Persian Gulf wars, Saddam's misgovernance, depressed oil prices, farm policy, overdependence on oil exports, differences in conditions between the autonomous north and the Saddam-controlled south, and so on.)

Saddam has not wasted any time on such interpretative nuance: Every death, "excess" or otherwise, is the embargo's fault. According to the Iraqi government, in the 10-year period from 1991-2001, UN policy has killed 670,000 children under five, and 1.6 million Iraqis overall (5,550 and 13,300 per month, respectively). Curiously, those numbers have grown over time (the alleged under-five death toll this June was 7,337), despite the introduction of the oil-for-food program, which has brought approximately US$20-billion of food and supplies into the country since 1997.

If the dictatorial Iraqi government itself can only come up with 670,000 under-five deaths in 10 years, how on earth did elite North American reporters get to a "half-million" as early as 1996? Through a comedy of error-filled science, activism and journalism.

In August, 1995, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) gave officials from the Iraqi Ministry of Health a questionnaire on child mortality, and asked them to conduct a survey in the capital city of Baghdad. On the basis of this five-day, 693-household, Iraq-controlled study, the FAO announced in November that "child mortality had increased nearly fivefold" since the era before sanctions. As embargo critic Richard Garfield, a public health specialist at Columbia University, noted in his own 1999 survey of under-five deaths, "The 1995 study's conclusions were subsequently withdrawn by the authors.... [Yet] their estimate of more than 500,000 excess child deaths due to the embargo is still often repeated by sanctions critics."

In March, 1996, the World Health Organization (WHO) published its own report on the humanitarian crisis. It reprinted figures -- provided solely by the Iraqi Ministry of Health -- showing that a total of 186,000 children under the age of five died between 1990 and 1994 in the 15 Saddam-governed provinces. According to these government figures, the number of deaths jumped from 8,903 in 1990 to 52,905 in 1994.

Then, a New York-based advocacy outfit called the Center for Economic and Social Rights (CESR) took a look at the Iraqi government's highest numbers and promptly tripled them. In May, 1996, CESR concluded "these mortality rates translate into a figure of over half a million excess child deaths as a result of sanctions."

That report might well have ended up in the dustbin of bad partisan mathematics had a CESR "fact-finding" tour of Iraq not been filmed by Lesley Stahl of CBS's 60 Minutes. Instead, in a May 12, 1996, broadcast that would later, ironically, win several journalism awards, Stahl threw CESR's bogus numbers at Madeleine Albright, then the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

"We have heard that a half million children have died," Stahl said. "I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?"

Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

It was the non-denial heard round the world. In the hands of sanctions opponents and U.S. foreign policy critics, it was portrayed as a confession of fact, even though neither Albright nor the U.S. government has ever admitted to such a ghastly number (nor had anybody aside from CESR and Stahl ever suggested such a thing as of May, 1996).

An interesting new perspective on Stahl's reporting emerged earlier this year when a former 60 Minutes producer colleague of hers, Maurice Murad, wrote in the new book Into the Buzzsaw about trying to track down the sanctions-deaths story in late 1995. Murad, whose parents were born and raised in Baghdad, travelled to his ancestral home to see how sanctions were "killing my people."

Instead, after weeks of visiting various cities and literally begging the government and everyone he met to show him starving people, Murad concluded "there was no food crisis in Iraq." He prepared a "detailed rendering of what was wrong with all the other stories" about sanctions, and left it at that. "The last thing I wanted to do was get into a pissing match with broadcasts in my own news division. Even now I am loath to do it because most of the people involved are first-rate journalists who seldom get snookered. And anyway, they know who they are."

Albright's inhumane response actually helped motivate the nascent anti-sanctions campaign, which began gathering steam in 1997 and 1998. The new movement internalized the two main numbers -- the 500,000 under-five deaths from 60 Minutes and the 5,000-dead-children-a-month from the Iraqi government -- and regurgitated them in college dailies, liberal journals of opinion and on the letters pages of daily newspapers. Ironically, this happened just after Saddam finally agreed to the UN's six-year-old proposal to permit oil exports in exchange for humanitarian products and oil-equipment supplies.

But before anyone thought to recalculate the numbers, the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) seemed to confirm them. In 1999, UNICEF released a pair of studies -- one on the autonomous north, the other on the Saddam-controlled south -- that concluded, after interviewing 40,000 households: "If the substantial reduction in the under-five mortality rate during the 1980s had continued through the 1990s, there would have been half a million fewer deaths of children under five in the country as a whole during the eight-year period 1991 to 1998."

But the "substantial reduction" was historic; if the rate had merely held firm at 1989 levels, the number of "excess deaths" would have been 420,000. And there is a huge gap between UNICEF's "if" and the Gannett article's claim that the agency (along with the WHO) had attributed "1 million deaths, half of which are children younger than five," to "the ongoing collateral damage of the war and sanctions on Iraqi civilians."

In November of last year, after sanctions critics and journalists responded to Sept. 11 with misquotations in dozens of major publications, UNICEF felt compelled to send out a corrective press release. The surveys, UNICEF reiterated, were never intended to produce an "absolute figure" of deaths, and the half-million number was based on false assumptions: "In other words, if there hadn't been two wars, if sanctions hadn't been introduced and if investment in social services had been maintained -- there would have been 500,000 fewer deaths of children under five."

The UNICEF studies also produced fodder for the pro-sanctions crowd: namely, that child mortality actually decreased in the no-fly-zone north (from 80 per 1,000 in 1984-89 to 71 in 1994-98) while more than doubling in Saddam's south (from 56 per 1,000 to 131).

When the report was released, UNICEF executive director Carol Bellamy attributed this discrepancy to "the large amount of international aid pumped into northern Iraq at the end of the [Persian Gulf] war." Increased mortality in the south, UNICEF concluded, was due to several factors including a dramatic decrease in the breast-feeding of infants in favour of bottle-only feeding. "It's very important not to just say that everything rests on sanctions," Bellamy said in one interview. "It is also the result of wars and the reduction in investment in resources for primary health care."

From the standpoint of on-the-ground research, the UNICEF report is by far the best we have. For interpretation of the scores of other studies, I have been impressed with the aforementioned Richard Garfield, whose major work (available at www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/garfield/dr-garfield.html) picked apart others' methodologies and freely admitted which of his data points were weakest.

Garfield's conclusion: Between August, 1991, and March, 1998, there were between 106,000 and 227,000 excess deaths of children under five. Recently, he has estimated the latter, less conservative number at 500,000 plus between 1990 and 2002.

The chief causes? "Contaminated water, lack of high-quality foods, inadequate breast-feeding, poor weaning practices and inadequate supplies in the curative health care system. This was the product of both a lack of some essential goods, and inadequate or inefficient use of existing essential goods."

And, of course, sanctions. "Even a small number of documentable excess deaths is an expression of a humanitarian disaster, and this number is not small," he concluded.

Garfield believes that during the last few years of oil-for-food, most of the blame for poor child mortality figures can be laid on the government of Iraq. And he also believes that if the country is bombed heavily, "it will be a terrible blow."

Which brings us back to the current debate, or lack thereof. After Sept. 11, when people (mostly from the political left) brought up Iraq, it was frequently to suggest that the sanctions-influenced humanitarian crisis may be contributing to the wellspring of anti-American sentiment in the Arab world. Last week, in two full days of hearings in the U.S. Senate, the subject of humanitarian effects barely came up.

The centre of the discussion has shifted from the concept of "smart sanctions" to the doctrine of "anticipatory self-defence." With the focus on plotting "regime change" and guessing about weapons programs, sorting through disputed mortality statistics is just not a priority.

The United States is in an expansive, pre-emptive mood. Awkward diplomatic arrangements -- such as the country's bizarre "friendship" with terrorist-producing Saudi Arabia -- feel vulnerable to restless public opinion and the alliance-shifting War on Terror. Punitive sanctions without weapons inspections will no longer do. As the embargo turns 12, only one bet seems safe: It won't see 13.
 

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Well that's easy:

Ramsey Clark tours Iraq; 100,000 dead due sanctions
Iraq, Politics, 8/29/2002

More than 100,000 Iraqis died during the past 8 months because of the embargo imposed on Iraq, according to the Iraqi ministry of health on Wednesday.

In a statement, the ministry added that "the continued besiege resulted in the death of 102,512 citizens during the period from the beginning of December 2001 until the end of July 2002."

Within the same context, the former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark who is also the founder of International Action Center made a tour on several hospitals in al-Basra province to the south of Iraq, and he saw many deformed births and cancer patients among citizens because of the use of the depleted Uranium, according to the Iraqi news agency.

Former U.S. Attorney General Clark had previously said that "An attack on Iraq by the United States would also violate the Constitution and laws of the United States ... Unfortunately in recent years our Constitution has been more honored in the breach than in faithful observance of the rights it is intended to protect for all. But the effort to hold accountable any U.S. authority who participates in an assault against Iraq will be made here by those who love their country and for that reason insist that its acts be just."
 

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And there's more:

OVER ONE MILLION DEAD
How Sanctions Affect the People of Iraq
Gulf Peace Action Committee
PO Box 653 Tynte St North Adelaide 5006

When the then US ambassador to the UN (now Secretary of State), Madeleine Albright was asked on the TV show "Sixty Minutes" about half a million children dying from the sanctions on Iraq, she replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."

It has been estimated by UNICEF that between August 1990 and August 1997, about 200,000 children in Iraq died from embargo related causes1. This figure is comparable to the number of people killed by Pol Pot in Cambodia, or by the genocide in Rwanda.

Sanctions were first imposed in August 1990 by the Security Council in response to the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. These sanctions ban all trade except for "supplies intended strictly for medical purposes, and in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs". In reality because Iraq's overseas assets have been frozen and it was unable to export oil, it was unable to import food and medicine. Any imports of food or medicine also had to be approved by the UN. Things improved slightly with the negotiation of an "oil for food" agreement which allowed Iraq to sell a limited amount of oil to purchase food and medicine. Iraq did not agree to this deal until 1995, and the implementation of the agreement was delayed by the US on technical grounds until August 19962.

The oil for food agreement only provided 25c per Iraqi per day, nowhere near enough to cater for people's basic needs. This year the amount of oil Iraq has been allowed to sell has increased from $2 billion to $4.5 billion, but people are still starving and dying of preventable diseases.

DISEASE AND STARVATION
A study by UNICEF in 1997 showed that approximately 960,000 children are malnourished3. There had been a six-fold increase in disease of starvation such as kwashiorkor and marasmus4. The effects of malnutrition on a child can affect it for the rest of its life. Malnutrition affects children for the while lives, stunning growth and affecting brain development.

Iraq's health system has been crippled. Pharmacies are nearly empty due to lack of medicine. There are severe shortages of medical supplies such as fresh linen, bandages, antiseptic leaning liquids, oxygen and blood bags. Hospital equipment such as x-ray machines, incubators and dialysis machines are scarce or inoperable due to lack of spare parts. Surgery is often performed without anaesthetic. Some hospitals have resorted to using kerosene in an attempt to sterilise things due to lack of proper equipment. Before the Gulf War, Iraq's domestic pharmaceutical industry produced over 250 different products, now it produces fewer than five5,2.

There has been a significant increase in various diseases amongst the Iraqi population. Malaria has increased by over 10 times; there was a surge in tetanus cases in 1991; there were no cases of cholera in 1989 or 1990, but there were over 1000 cases in both the years 1991 and 1994; the incidence of typhoid has increased by over 14 times. The increase in cholera and typhoid is partly due to the bombing of water purification and sewerage treatment plants during the Gulf War. Untreated sewage systems difficult to repair 2.

The sanctions have had a particularly bad impact on Iraq because it is an oil exporting nation and is dependant on imports for many basic supplies particularly food. The effects of sanctions have also been exacerbated by the Gulf War. Inflation has been made worse by the US smuggling large amounts of counterfeit currency across the border into Iraq 6.

WAR CRIMES
Over 150,000 people were killed during the Gulf War. Mant of these were Kurds or Shiite conscripts. Only 17% of the ordinance dropped during the Gulf War were "smart-bombs" or guided munitions. The most common form of weapon used was cluster bombs - bombs which scatter hundred of bomblets over a large area to kill a large number of people. The US also used Napalm and fuel air explosives. The city of Basra was carpet bombed. Many Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by tanks equipped with bulldozer blades.

The west also used depleted uranium anti-tank shells in the Gulf War. The radiation caused by this has resulted in an increase in leukemia in southern Iraq, and has possibly endangered the health of people who fought in the war.

On the night of the 25th of February 1991, a convoy of what was left of the army fled out of Kuwait City back to Iraq. Groups of eight allied aircraft were assigned specific "kill zones" and sent into the desert. The massacre has been described as a "turkey shoot" by some of its participants. There is no reliable figure of Iraqi casualties because General Schwarzkopf ordered most of the bodies o be buried in mass graves - a violation of the Geneva Convention.

LIES
After Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Kuwaiti government in exile hired the public relations firm Hill and Knowlton to improve the image of the Kuwaiti regime. This was one of the largest ever contracts in the history of public relations, valued at $0.9 million.

In October 1990, Hill and Knowlton, on behalf of the Kuwaiti government, has a 15 year old girl "Niyirah" testify before the White House Human Rights Caucus. She tearfully testified that whole working in a Kuwaiti hospital she saw Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators and let them die on the cold floor. President Bush mentioned in the incubator incident in five of his speeches backing a pro-war resolution.

It turned out that "Niyirah" was actually the daughter of Kuwaiti's ambassador to the US and had never worked in a hospital. The story was a total fabrication. Hill and Kowlton also produced 24 video news release which resulted in tens of millions of dollars worth of free air time. It is not unusual for PR firms to manipulate public opinion. One study found that 40% of the news in a typical US newspaper originated with public relations press releases, memos, or suggestions 7.

There were many lies produced during the Gulf War, for example although Iraq's military may have set fire to some oil wells, many oil platforms were bombed by the US air force. During the war, members of the media were escorted at all times in the war zone by the military. Today there is little coverage in the media of the starvation caused by sanctions, even though it is of great international significance.

WEAPONS INSPECTIONS
There is a certain amount of hypocrisy in the US's insistence on continuing sanctions until weapons inspections have finished. The US is the world's largest holder of weapons of mass destruction. It also produced chemical and biological weapons. Private companies from the US supplied Iraq with bacteria that could be used to produce biological weapons. This even continues after Saddam Hussein had used poison gas against Kurds.

The US government is not very partial to weapons inspectors on its own soil. The US Senate act ratifying the Chemicals Weapons Convention says that "the President may deny a request to inspect any facility in the United States in cases where the President determines that the inspection may pose a threat to the national security of the United States."

There were many other countries which also have convert nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs. Most of these countries do not have crippling UN sanctions. Another more serious threat to the world's security is the danger of plutonium and uranium disappearing from nuclear facilities in what was the Soviet Union. The west seems to be more interested in chasing certain third world dictators than in this issue. The focus on weapons inspections also helps demonize Saddam Hussein in the media, a process that has been going on since the beginning of the Gulf Crisis.

There is also considerable evidence that UN weapons inspectors have been involved in spying for the United States. This jeopardises any future role the UN may play in disarmament.

WHY SANCTIONS?
There are many possible reasons why the UN is continuing sanctions against Iraq. The official reason is that Iraq has not fully complied with UN resolutions. The main country in the UN pushing for sanctions is the US. Sanctions continue because the US and it's allies have enough power in the UN to ensure that sanctions continue.

There are several reasons why the US wants the embargo to continue. One is that the US wishes to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Sanctions are unlikely to achieve this because it encourages people in Iraq to unite against the external threat, and thus less likely to overthrow their own government. The conflict with Iraq also encourages some people in western countries to rally behind their own governments in fits of nationalistic pride. It will also be politically difficult for many western governments to lift sanctions given the amount of anti-Iraq propaganda that has been produced.

There is also pressure on the US government from Saudi Arabia not to lift the embargo due to the possibility of Iraqi oil replacing Saudi oil in many markets6. If Iraq comes back onto the oil market it is also likely to result in a decrease of its economy. This could mean it is less of a military threat to the US and US's clients in the Middle East. The continuation of sanctions also means that there is an increased US military presence in the region.

The sanctions and the war that preceded it are unlikely to result in any lasting peace in the Gulf region. In the aftermath of the Gulf War billions of dollars worth of weapons have been sold by the West to countries in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is now the worlds largest arms importer.

The death and destruction caused by the trade embargo could quite accurately be describes as a form of warfare - a continuation of the Gulf War. They also require a significant military presence to be maintained, in which Australia participates. With over a million people dead, the sanctions are also a form of genocide. Even the people who survive will be scarred for life from the effects of malnutrition and misery.

WHAT YOU CAN DO
There are many things that can be done to stop the sanctions against Iraq. If more people knew the full extent of the damage caused by sanctions, it would be hard for them to remain in place. Ways of informing people include talking to people and writing letters to newspapers. Direct action can also be used to sight the sanctions. Recently about 4 millions dollars worth of medical supplies have been delivered by activists to Iraq in breach of the sanctions.

In Adelaide the Gulf Peace Action Committee is a group which is doing what it can to help stop the sanctions. If you want to help, get in contact with us.

REFERENCES
1. Felicity Arbuthnot, "Dying of Shame", New Internationalist, Jan-Fed 1998, pp 12-13

2. "Iraqi Sanctions, Human Rights and International Law", Middle East Report, Vol. 26, No. 3, Summer 1996, pp 40-43

3. "Revealing a crisis: Surveying child nutrition in Iraq", Development Bulletin, No. 44, Jan 1998, pp 80-81

4. "The Health Conditions of the Population in Iraq Since the Gulf Crisis", World Health Organization, March 1996

5. Ramsey Clark, "Report on the civilian Impact of UN Sanctions to the Members of the UN Security Council" March 1996, available from http://www.iacenter.org/reportun.htm

6. Robert Bissio, "The World Guide 1997/98", Oxfam Publications, pp 309-311

7. Johan Carlisle, "Public Relationships: Hill and Knowlton, Robert Gray, and the CIA", Covert Action Quarterly, No. 44, Spring 1993
 

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Even if ten children had died due to sanctions, then that is 10 too many.
 

kid kool

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Originally posted by markoy
Well that's easy:

Ramsey Clark tours Iraq; 100,000 dead due sanctions
Iraq, Politics, 8/29/2002

More than 100,000 Iraqis died during the past 8 months because of the embargo imposed on Iraq, according to the Iraqi ministry of health on Wednesday.

In a statement, the ministry added that "the continued besiege resulted in the death of 102,512 citizens during the period from the beginning of December 2001 until the end of July 2002."

Within the same context, the former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark who is also the founder of International Action Center made a tour on several hospitals in al-Basra province to the south of Iraq, and he saw many deformed births and cancer patients among citizens because of the use of the depleted Uranium, according to the Iraqi news agency.

Former U.S. Attorney General Clark had previously said that "An attack on Iraq by the United States would also violate the Constitution and laws of the United States ... Unfortunately in recent years our Constitution has been more honored in the breach than in faithful observance of the rights it is intended to protect for all. But the effort to hold accountable any U.S. authority who participates in an assault against Iraq will be made here by those who love their country and for that reason insist that its acts be just."

Nobody in Iraq can be dead as a result of the sanctions. The sanctions continued to be in place due to Saddam's violations of the cease fire agreement in 1991. Therefore it is in fact he who is standing in the way of his people. If the sanctions were lifted his people would be still be starving as he would use whatever revenue is gained on his military and endless presidential palaces in the same way that he misuses all current funds which he obtains through clandestine deals with the french and others.
 
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Deltapooh

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As Kid Kool stated, Saddam is responsible for the deaths, not the US. He is the one using the money to buy weaponry.

The French government doesn't give a hoot about the Iraqi people. As Tigersqn stated, their concerns are trade. France dismissed Saddam's brutal treatment of his people for many years. So the morality pitch is about as strong as Bush's claim this war is about taking down terrorists.
 

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ah ok. forget all the little technical issues about the french. theres one reason that they dont want to go to war with iraq. ONCE A COUNTRY LOOSES ALL THEIR WARS, THEY GROW WEARY OF FIGHTING. oh yeah, that must explain the germans too

im open to whatever i deserve for saying that
 

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I recall one Onion article in which the Germans invading France in World War 2 was the topic, and a quote from a young French boy to a German officer was: "We kept your rooms just the way you left them."
 

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ah ok. forget all the little technical issues about the french. theres one reason that they dont want to go to war with iraq. ONCE A COUNTRY LOOSES ALL THEIR WARS, THEY GROW WEARY OF FIGHTING. oh yeah, that must explain the germans too

im open to whatever i deserve for saying that


Your punishment is to be stripped, tied to a chair, and raped by a room fool of beautiful cheerleaders! That'll teach you never to make comments like that.

Many Americans suffer from the "Vietnam" syndrome. Whenever they hear the word war mentioned in a sentence with America anywhere in it, they automatically assume we're gonna get our butts kicked. The troops greatest critic at times are the people they defend.

I don't think France is concerned about war with Iraq. Their reservation is in the aftermath. The US doesn't have the greatest staying power. It's not hard to imagine things going to crap and the US packing it's bags and halling *ss. We did that in Lebannon, Iraq, and Somalia. Had Bush not been so concerned with getting out of dogde before high noon in 1991, we might not be having this discussion today. Disarmament without the threat of immediate force rarely succeeds, particularly against dictators. Did we withdraw from Germany or Japan before the terms of surrender were meant?

I know fighting wars like the last one is bad, however that doesn't extend to politics. Bush didn't want the trouble and hauled tailed. It was a serious mistake, even if he believed Saddam was finished.

So I can understand some of the world's concerns. I don't think there will be all the confusion and chaos some are claiming. However, we must be aware there will be political ramifications that will need to address. The US can't just pack it's bags and run just because we fear being drawn into a sand trap.
 

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Originally posted by Deltapooh
ah ok. forget all the little technical issues about the french. theres one reason that they dont want to go to war with iraq. ONCE A COUNTRY LOOSES ALL THEIR WARS, THEY GROW WEARY OF FIGHTING. oh yeah, that must explain the germans too

im open to whatever i deserve for saying that


Your punishment is to be stripped, tied to a chair, and raped by a room fool of beautiful cheerleaders! That'll teach you never to make comments like that.

Many Americans suffer from the "Vietnam" syndrome. Whenever they hear the word war mentioned in a sentence with America anywhere in it, they automatically assume we're gonna get our butts kicked. The troops greatest critic at times are the people they defend.

I don't think France is concerned about war with Iraq. Their reservation is in the aftermath. The US doesn't have the greatest staying power. It's not hard to imagine things going to crap and the US packing it's bags and halling *ss. We did that in Lebannon, Iraq, and Somalia. Had Bush not been so concerned with getting out of dogde before high noon in 1991, we might not be having this discussion today. Disarmament without the threat of immediate force rarely succeeds, particularly against dictators. Did we withdraw from Germany or Japan before the terms of surrender were meant?

I know fighting wars like the last one is bad, however that doesn't extend to politics. Bush didn't want the trouble and hauled tailed. It was a serious mistake, even if he believed Saddam was finished.

So I can understand some of the world's concerns. I don't think there will be all the confusion and chaos some are claiming. However, we must be aware there will be political ramifications that will need to address. The US can't just pack it's bags and run just because we fear being drawn into a sand trap.
ditto
 

Headshot

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what? sure i agree that bush will utterly ruin any chance of nation building, but ditto? Marko just because you have nothing to say doesnt mean you have to piggyback on others intelligent thought
 

Marko

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Originally posted by Headshot
what? sure i agree that bush will utterly ruin any chance of nation building, but ditto? Marko just because you have nothing to say doesnt mean you have to piggyback on others intelligent thought
You really are embarrassing yourself with this personal crusade against me. Grow up.
 

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I do try to stay on topic, but with this continual harrassment it is difficult - first from Dog 1 and now Headshot. So please do not warn me for giving back what I recieve. There should be a public warning and it should go the instigator. This is a democracy, so why not blame the one who needs blaming instead of making a blanket reamark. Headshot posted after nearly all my posts from yesterday and slated me personally in virtually everyone. So personally I think he needs to be banned, or at least warned publicy.
 

Rooster

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Marko.

You Warning starts with forum policy and it was violated by the both of you... enough said, you and headshot have not been banned and yes i made postings at all those threads...
 
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