Which would you pick up?

[witchbottles]

Its D-Day. You landed with your stick more than 6 miles from the LZ for your battalion. Somewhere on the trip down, you lost your rifle, and you are armed and dangerous with a Hawkins Mine, a razor sharp bayonet, and two hand grenades. Since on others are anywhere near you, there is not much to pick up and fight with.

You come across a small clearing, and there are a few KIA American Paras in the field, along with some German troops. Your 9 man patrol fans out and you find a pair of MP-38s and 50 or so rounds of ammunition in magazines, so you grab one. now at least you can fight at range.

Coming across another field later in the day, you locate a glider landing area and realize the casualties are Brits from 6 Para. There are a lot of available Stens and magazines piled up next to one of the gliders being used as an impromptu field hospital.

So what do you do? Would you trade in that MP-38 for a Sten and a decent supply of ammo?

The base question is which of these crudely made and at times temperamental SMGs was a more effective weapon in a combat situation.

Both use a 9mmP round, and in fact, you could if desired, pull the ammo from the magazines for one and hand- load them into empty mags for the other.

I am not entirely sure myself which one I would have chosen. I came across Fox Company 501's story from three of the survivors interviewed by the authors. They dropped so far off course they ended up about three hours march to an LZ that belonged to the Brit 6th Paras. Their two unarmed men were refitted with Stens and sent on the merry way back to Carentan with the rest of the stick. But they could have chosen to stick with the MPs they had picked up along the way, I guess.

an interesting thought to ponder. I do not have a lot of personal experience with either, other than the base knowledge both were rapidly manufactured and lacked , shall we say, ease of continual effective use. ( ie prone to malfunctions).

thoughts?

 

[mooreshawnm]

50 rounds is less than two mags. Definitely trade for the STEN plus ammo. ....until I could find a rifle,

 

[witchbottles]

50 rounds is less than two mags. Definitely trade for the STEN plus ammo. ....until I could find a rifle,

good point, rather have 4 or 5 mags than 1 and a half.

jam- prone or not, the extra ammo not being required to hand feed into the stacked magazine is going to pay off. Never thought about that.

 

[Dave68124]

Given the weight of both, I may have chose to pick up and carry both. If I came across more ammo for the MP, then dump the Sten. If I used up my MP ammo, then dump the MP.

 

[mooreshawnm]

Given the weight of both, I may have chose to pick up and carry both. If I came across more ammo for the MP, then dump the Sten. If I used up my MP ammo, then dump the MP.

That was my first thought but didn't wan't to be harassed by folks calling me a video gamer!

 

[Dave68124]

That was my first thought but didn't wan't to be harassed by folks calling me a video gamer!

Actually I might retract that...I was thinking those guns weighed in around 4 to 5 pounds each. MP40 is almost 9 lbs - a little less than a M1 - and sten is about 7 lbs. Sixteen pounds of guns plus ammo would likely result one of them getting thrown to the side about mile 3 or 4 of the walk. I would lean towards more ammo and chance the reliability.

 

[Brian W]

Well, as stated they both fire 9x19mm, so if you have ammo for one you have ammo for the other. Were the magazines interchangeable? Per Wikipedia,

Additional problems stemmed from the Sten's magazine, which was a direct copy of the one used in the German MP-38, originally in order to facilitate the use of German 9 mm magazines.[SUP][5][/SUP] Unfortunately, this decision necessarily incorporated the Erma magazine's faults in the process.

So the magazine issue may be moot, too. I've not shot either, but my gut reaction was the MP-38. It just looks easier to handle.

 

[mooreshawnm]

Did not know that! Thank you Brian.

 

[Perry]

For better or worse, I would have kept the STEN (despite thinking the MP was a better weapon) in hopes that no one would think I was German when firing it.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Having fired the Sterling 9mm SMG (the British post war version of the sten, just see any well armed star wars stormtrooper to see one) I would of kept the Sten, a very crude SMG but as Jon has said, you have lots of ammo etc.
Also Perry raises a very. very important point, the last thing on earth you do in a combat zone is use an enemy weapon unless you have 200% no other choice, simple reason every body on your side WILL light you up, and you will end up dead very fast.

 

[Vinnie]

Given you've landed at night, using the enemy Wesson would be an automatic San so you're better off with the sten gun.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I would be less worried about the difference in sound between a Sten and a MP 38/40 than between a Browning M1919, BAR or Bren and a MG 34 or 42. The MG sounds were very different due to their RoF differences, the SMGs much less so. I'd be more worried about a US paratrooper, used to the sound of a .45" Thompson or M3 Grease Gun, thinking that a Sten was German.

As a small matter concerning the original post's premise, I thought that a .45" Colt M1911 was standard for all paratroopers to allow for precisely for that type of situation. Still not a real substitute for a rifle or carbine.

 

[witchbottles]

I would be less worried about the difference in sound between a Sten and a MP 38/40 than between a Browning M1919, BAR or Bren and a MG 34 or 42. The MG sounds were very different due to their RoF differences, the SMGs much less so. I'd be more worried about a US paratrooper, used to the sound of a .45" Thompson or M3 Grease Gun, thinking that a Sten was German.

As a small matter concerning the original post's premise, I thought that a .45" Colt M1911 was standard for all paratroopers to allow for precisely for that type of situation. Still not a real substitute for a rifle or carbine.

unfortunately, no. in mid 1944, the US paratrooper was still issued a M1 Garand as a standard T/O weapon with a cut down version of the bayonet at 10" length. The M1A1 folding stock carbine was issued to paratroops who would have otherwise been issued a service sidearm like the M1911 .45 ACP
Standard practice for all US Airborne troops was to switch out the M1A1 as soon as practicable for a heavier-hitting Garand.

The only paratroops receiving a M1911 .45 ACP as standard issue were the pack howitzer, mortar, and AT gun crews. In field acquisitions before D-Day meant that about 2/3rds of the officer corps had M1911s and about 1 in 5 BAR gunners. ( these were leftovers issued during training exercises and from the 1943 T/O and never returned to the armory, along with some Italy / Sicily battlefield pickups)

One man in each squad received a M1A1 Thompson SMG and a combat knife rather than a bayonet. Officers and squad leaders were issued folding stock carbines and a folding knife.

each man was issued a Hawkins mine, three hand grenades. each platoon was issued a 1 pound block of composition C. 1 man in each squad was equipped with a BAR.

so you looked like this on 6-June 1944 at the squad level:

1 x Sqd Leader - M1A1 carbine, folding knife, 3 x hand grenades, Hawkins Mine.
1 x Assistant Sqd Leader, M1A1 Thompson SMG, fighting knife, 3 hand grenades, Hawkins Mine.
1 x BAR Gunner, BAR, folding knife, Hawkins Mine.
1 x assistant BAR gunner, M1A1 carbine, folding knife, 3 x hand grenades, Hawkins Mine.
6 x Riflemen, M1 Garand, short 10" bayonet, 3 x hand grenades, Hawkins Mine.

Of these the odds were roughly 20% the BAR man had a 45 ACP; roughly 10% the Sqd leader had a .45 ACP in their possession when they jumped.

They carried all kinds of superflous gear, but that is the Army for you.

 

[Yuri0352]

I would pick up the Sten instead of the MP 38 for the following.

I wouldn't want to be seen by the friendlies in low light or silhouette as carrying the distinctive German SMG.

If the Sten's were lying near a field hospital, there was probably a greater quantity of mags and weapons to choose from.

By June 1944, there had been some improvements made to the Sten regarding ergonomics and function.

In any event, I would keep my eyes open for an M-1 Garand or a Thompson as a replacement. In this hypothetical even a German weapon is preferable to being unarmed.

 

[kcole4001]

Also commented on by period users was the mag arrangement: vertical (MP38/40) vs horizontal (Sten).
The vets liked the MPs but found the Sten much more comfortable when firing prone.
You couldn't quite get down flat when using the German guns.
That can make all the difference in the world at times under fire.

I know one ex-transport Cpl (Canadians in Germany 1970s to '80s) who told me that they quite liked the Stens they were issued and they were regarded as being quite effective at appropriate ranges.


So, I guess, pick up the Sten.
You'd be more likely to find spare mags and other guns for parts if needed, and it's lighter.
Also grab every grenade you can spot.

 

[Geoff White]

The Sten? Described by George MacDonnald Fraser in his book, Safely Quartered Out Here, on his time in the Burma Campaign as - "the plumber's nightmare". Enough said.

G

 

[RRschultze]

Its D-Day. You landed with your stick more than 6 miles from the LZ for your battalion. Somewhere on the trip down, you lost your rifle, and you are armed and dangerous with a Hawkins Mine, a razor sharp bayonet, and two hand grenades. Since on others are anywhere near you, there is not much to pick up and fight with.

You come across a small clearing, and there are a few KIA American Paras in the field, along with some German troops. Your 9 man patrol fans out and you find a pair of MP-38s and 50 or so rounds of ammunition in magazines, so you grab one. now at least you can fight at range.

Coming across another field later in the day, you locate a glider landing area and realize the casualties are Brits from 6 Para. There are a lot of available Stens and magazines piled up next to one of the gliders being used as an impromptu field hospital.

So what do you do? Would you trade in that MP-38 for a Sten and a decent supply of ammo?

The base question is which of these crudely made and at times temperamental SMGs was a more effective weapon in a combat situation.

Both use a 9mmP round, and in fact, you could if desired, pull the ammo from the magazines for one and hand- load them into empty mags for the other.

I am not entirely sure myself which one I would have chosen. I came across Fox Company 501's story from three of the survivors interviewed by the authors. They dropped so far off course they ended up about three hours march to an LZ that belonged to the Brit 6th Paras. Their two unarmed men were refitted with Stens and sent on the merry way back to Carentan with the rest of the stick. But they could have chosen to stick with the MPs they had picked up along the way, I guess.

an interesting thought to ponder. I do not have a lot of personal experience with either, other than the base knowledge both were rapidly manufactured and lacked , shall we say, ease of continual effective use. ( ie prone to malfunctions).

thoughts?

I would have searched a bit harder and found the German STG44 hidden in the bush!

 

[Yuri0352]

I would have searched a bit harder and found the German STG44 hidden in the bush!

Considering that during that stage of the war nearly all of the STG44's were being used on the eastern front, such a search would have been an exercise in futility.
Even the lowly Sten would have been more useful than a prolonged snipe hunt.

 

[RRschultze]

Considering that during that stage of the war nearly all of the STG44's were being used on the eastern front, such a search would have been an exercise in futility.
Even the lowly Sten would have been more useful than a prolonged snipe hunt.

Were they? I read a number of accounts of Volksgrenadier troops using them during the battle of the Bulge on the western front

 

[witchbottles]

Were they? I read a number of accounts of Volksgrenadier troops using them during the battle of the Bulge on the western front

true, but the period of reference was Normandy 1944, 5-6 June.

I am not sure any allied parachutist actually dropped before Operation Varsity would have encountered an StG 44. They were not in Sicily, Normandy, Tunisia, Kanev, or Market-Garden, to the best of my knowledge. Perhpas the only place one might have found one would have been in Holland. Otherthan that, it would have only been during Monty's grand crossing of the Rhine, or the paras acting as poor bloody infantry meat plugs as in Bastogne and Foy.