Which Product Would You Prefer Released First?

[WaterRabbit]

Oh and another thing (in true Dennis Miller-like fashion):

If the rulebook were made to be compatible with Publish On Demand, then I, you, and MMP would NEVER have to hear another person B&M about not being able to get a rulebook.

 

[Pitman]

Don, no offense, but I think you are wrong. You suggest that AOO can wait until more important modules are back in print. But you can't. The plain fact is that something important is always going to be out of print. That can never be an excuse not to finish the system. As it is right now, actions involving millions of soldiers cannot be represented in ASL, and never can be until AOO is out.

ASL is not just Beyond Valor. It is a system. And the system needs to be completed.

 

[Dr Zaius]

ASL is not just Beyond Valor. It is a system. And the system needs to be completed.

With all due respect, there is no system without the ASLRB. We can agree to disagree on the importance of BV vs. AoO.

 

[da priest]

With all due respect, there is no system without the ASLRB. .

Sorry Don, the system exists already for 70-90% of the people, who will be playing in 5 years. Don't care how many newbies you pick-up, in 5 years the same 70-90% of the support base will be there.

Now do you p*ss your major support base off, or please the minority newbies?

The Da*ned Rulebook better be done in 30-45 days though, cause it has stalled AoO long enuf...

 

[Robin Reeve]

Now, time for a well-known "sacrilege" : why not offer a free, downloadable set of rules?
Or, at least, grant permission for free copying the printed ones?
The "loss" of bucks not selling the RB would easily be compensated by the production of new modules and other components - with the advantage of freeing time (and time is money, isn't it?).
The intro of my 2nd edition RB spoke about giving an electronical version of the rules (on CD) : why not exploit this to the end?

This will be my last "blasphemy" : if photocopying the rules could encourage a newbie to buy many modules and remain in the "ASL sphere", how much time will he be able to restrain himself cheating with the copyright laws?
After all, "bypass" exists in ASL..

 

[purdyrc]

The downloadable rules would be a good idea for the people playing ASL, but would be terrible for MMP.

The profit on the rulebook must be fairly decent. And because it is an integral part of the "system", MMP stands to lose a mint on giving them away for free. As for holding up other projects, I don't think the rulebook is holding anything up really. Remember, these guys are part-timers. I'm sure their day jobs and families and all that other stuff takes way more of their time than proofing the rulebook.

And if you want to talk about time wasters, try researching all of those hideously obscure AoO vehicles and guns. I'm sure the chapter H notes for AoO will be at least the equal to the total amount of printed materials that had previously been published on the subject up to this point.

And finally, as for catering to the newbies vs. the "old guard", if this hobby is going to have a future, MMP needs to do both, which I think they have. AoO is a prime example of catering to the older crowd. There is no way AoO is a newbie product (not at the $112 retail price anyway!). No ASL newcomer is going to part with a Benjamin just so he (or she - let's be respectful) can game with the Croats.

Remember, AoO may be the spice, but the rulebook and BV will pay the bills.

- Rick

 

[da priest]

Remember, AoO may be the spice, but the rulebook and BV will pay the bills.

Rick, don't know how to quite put this. Ya haven't been around too long huh? MMP has stated that the ASLRB is as close to cost as they can make it, to keep the price down for da newbies.(sticker shock ya know). With the new maps, BV might actual generate a little profit, but price has been low for similar reason.:bandit:

AoO will be the moneymaker the year it is published. In this case AoO pays the bills, and every other Grog product(HASL, Action Pack, etc) does the same.:smoke:

 

[Pitman]

With all due respect, there is no system without the ASLRB. We can agree to disagree on the importance of BV vs. AoO.

The ASLRB has been around for two decades. Perhaps you hadn't noticed. And I am sure you meant "the importance of a Beyond Valor that has been around since 1985 versus an AOO that still has not come out yet."

 

[purdyrc]

Rick, don't know how to quite put this. Ya haven't been around too long huh? MMP has stated that the ASLRB is as close to cost as they can make it, to keep the price down for da newbies.(sticker shock ya know). With the new maps, BV might actual generate a little profit, but price has been low for similar reason.:bandit:

AoO will be the moneymaker the year it is published. In this case AoO pays the bills, and every other Grog product(HASL, Action Pack, etc) does the same.:smoke:

I appreciate the attempt to spare my feelings!

Just like the old saying that one must learn to walk before one can run, one must be an ASL newbie before one can be an ASL Grog. The only way to get to Grogdom is through the rulebook and BV (unless you want to buy a couple of copies of the starter kits and paratrooper to get the necessary game pieces).

The rulebook, despite what may or may not have been said, will be a money-maker just like all the other products MMP puts out. If I had to guess (and others in this forum are more knowledgable and can tell me otherwise), I would say that the v2 rulebook will cost between $30 and $40 for MMP to produce.

The retail price is set at $80 with a pre-order price of $60. That means the rulebook costs less than $60 to make (otherwise MMP would be giving the rulebook away at the pre-order price; something they aren't likely to do). Most manufacturers set the retail cost at about half what it costs to actually make the item. This way, they can offer volume discounts to dealers and still make a profit. Most dealers and distributors will not even talk to you unless you are willing to cut them a 30% or greater discount off the retail price and still more of the leaches want you to cut them a 40 or 50% discount. After all, they need to pay the bills too.

Assuming a 30% discount off of retail, MMP could sell the rulebook to dealers for about $56 ($80 minus 30% = $56) which is close to the pre-order discount on the MMP Website. Now MMP isn't going to give away the rulebook and not make a profit on all that hard work. After all, they've had to put up with a ton of abuse and name-calling in this and on other forums. So one has to assume that the $56 is probably marked up at least 10-20% over what it actually costs to produce. After all, MMP has bills to pay too.

Therefore, MMP will make a lot money on each rulebook sold directly to consumers - much more than rulebooks sold directly to dealers and distributors. If you really want to support MMP, buy directly from them. More money will go into their pocket and fund more projects from them.

I'll give it to you that AoO will pay the bills - THIS YEAR (or next whenever it's produced and the pre-order credit cards have been charged) - but there is no way it will be a sustainable product at $112 for years to come. And the cost will only increase with inflation. The ASL grogs will, by now, have placed their pre-order for AoO. After the initial order and printing, this item will likely remain in the "I'd like to have it so I can complete my collection, but I got a house payment to make this month" category.

By contrast, the rulebook and BV will remain the bread-and-butter items for MMP in the future (aside from possibly the starter kits). That's what I meant by money makers. These items will always be consistent sellers for them year-after-year. That's also what I meant by catering to both newbies and grogs. The spice is for the hardcore, while the starch is for those getting into the game.

All the other MMP products are important, but I doubt anyone would even consider buying them without first owning the rulebook and BV. That's my point.

Walk before you run.

Newbie before you Grog.

- Rick

 

[sgtono]

....
And finally, as for catering to the newbies vs. the "old guard", if this hobby is going to have a future, MMP needs to do both, which I think they have. AoO is a prime example of catering to the older crowd. There is no way AoO is a newbie product (not at the $112 retail price anyway!). No ASL newcomer is going to part with a Benjamin just so he (or she - let's be respectful) can game with the Croats.

Remember, AoO may be the spice, but the rulebook and BV will pay the bills.

- Rick

I do not know about anyone else but I have not been catered to in years. It is the "old guard" that clears inventories on ASL products and it is the "old guard" that provides the newbies to clear more inventory.

So Rick what happens to you when AOO does become the spice? "old guard" ?

Keith

 

[purdyrc]

So Rick what happens to you when AOO does become the spice? "old guard" ?

Keith

Keith,

Toche'

To answer your question, I would probably buy it too. Not really because I'm interested in the subject matter, but more because I'm an anal-rententive completist who would always wonder what I was missing! :shock:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to put down the old-guard, I just wanted to point out the importance of the newbie in the long-term success of ASL.

When we're all 80 years old, will we still be playing ASL? Will we be hurrying down to the social security office to cash our checks in order to buy the latest $500 module (yes they will cost around $500 by then) module depicting the German occupation of Denmark? Probably not.

That's where the newbies come in. They are the life-giving infusion that ASL will constantly require to remain a living system.

Just like Dracula, our hobby requires a consistent source of fresh blood.

- Rick

 

[Dr Zaius]

Sorry Don, the system exists already for 70-90% of the people, who will be playing in 5 years. Don't care how many newbies you pick-up, in 5 years the same 70-90% of the support base will be there.

Now do you p*ss your major support base off, or please the minority newbies?

The Da*ned Rulebook better be done in 30-45 days though, cause it has stalled AoO long enuf...

Ron I hate to break this to you but most of the guys you are referring to are to some extent irrelevant in economic terms. You're referring to a group a diehard wargamers who already own the ASL system, thus they don't need to buy it again. That's pretty basic business 101. If you work for Ford and you spend most of your energy trying to engineer fancier hood ornaments for the guy who already owns one of your trucks, you're going to be put out of business by the guy down the street who is recruiting new customers and actually selling, uh trucks.

Do you need to keep your existing customers happy so they will help spread the word and perhaps buy more of your product? Of course, but new customers are the direction where any company’s highest priorities must lie.

Ron, the people who own and play the game are not "the major support base." God, I wish it were that easy! Wargame companies would probably be rolling in cash by now. The unfortunate reality -- and none of really have to like it -- is that sales to new customers are what drives a successful business. Period. What you're advocating, at least to some extent, is that MMP abandon any attempt to be a legitimate business and simply become a enthusiast support organ for existing ASL fans. Cool for grognards, but long term that amounts to a death sentence for MMP.

Economics within the wargame market make this a very tough business to be in. The reality on the ground is that economics drive what a company can and can't do. From where I sit, MMP has learned some very nasty basic business lessons over the last few years and they are still learning. No matter how much we might stamp our feet and wish it to be otherwise, a company has to market its core product(s) before they can even think about selling hood ornaments. They may get away with such a strategy for a little while, but it is eventually a surefire recipe for bankruptcy.

You can sneer the word "newbie" in the most derisive terms you can possibly conjure up, but make no mistake, the existence of our hobby is dependant to a large degree on them. This doesn't just apply to ASL, it applies to all wargames. Even the strongest tree has to bend with the wind or break.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I think that MMP is squandering the good will created with the ASLSK by not having the ASLRB and BV available. Sure Paratrooper will do in a jam, but it's a dead end module that doesn't even have all the maps required to play the included scenarios.

In essence, the existing players want AoO, while the new players need ALSRB and BV.

I'd say for MMP to make a choice and get down and just DO it.

 

[sgtono]

............
Do you need to keep your existing customers happy so they will help spread the word and perhaps buy more of your product? Of course, but new customers are the direction where any company’s highest priorities must lie.

Ron, the people who own and play the game are not "the major support base." God, I wish it were that easy! Wargame companies would probably be ....

This time Don I have to totally disagree with some of your statements. Comparing wargames to Fords hold no water. I do not need you to play with my Ford. But I certainly need Ron to play ASL. You MUST maintain your customer loyalty or you will find your cash flow so restricted you have nothing to invest in gaining new customers. And you need your existing customers to be able to provide the cheapest and best advertisement there is. Word of mouth in this business is much more critical than buying a car. Statistics show that most cars are sold mainly on two criteria, looks and financing, no not for all of us but the majority.

Nothing is easy in any business but Business 101 will tell you everytime you cannot beat word of mouth in niche markets.

Keith Todd

 

[purdyrc]

Not to split hairs or jump into the middle of someone else's discussion, but I think the car producing analogy is a good one.

How often do you buy a car? Once every three years? Once every five? The car I'm driving is 8 years old and I hope to keep driving it until it falls apart. If Mercury is counting on me to keep their sales up, they'll be out of business before I finish typing this post.

ASL is like car buying in that people will probably only buy one or two copies of ASL products at most in their lifetime. Once everyone has a copy of BV, will they really run out and buy another? You might argue that folks will buy each new copy of the rulebook that comes out, but if MMP releases a new version of Yanks with a dozen extra scenarios, will any of the Grogs plunk down 80 wing-wangs to buy it? Probably not. That's where the newbies come in.

Once hooked, newbies will part with the hard-earned cash to buy the new BV, Yanks, etc., etc. so they too can transform into bitter Grogs wondering where their AoO module is. That's the key to any successful business. All good drug dealers know it. It's nice to have a steady stream of repeat customers, but eventually they will burn out or OD and if you don't have a line up of new customers waiting to buy your product, you'll soon be out of business.

- Rick

 

[Pitman]

Don, how on earth can you say things like people who own and play ASL are not the game's major support base? It strains credulity.

The bottom line is that there are a core group of ASLers--not POTENTIAL ASLers but ACTUAL ones--whose purchases are responsible for ASL's past and present and continued existence. These people want AOO. They want it bad. And they have been wanting it for one heck of a long time.

I am as much a supporter of keeping things in print and projects like the ASLSK as there can be. But companies have to be loyal to their core fans....or there will inevitably be adverse consequences.

 

[Larry]

Not jump on the bandwagon, but it is the excitement and playing of ASL by grognards that gets some of the "fresh blood" into the game. Anything that generates excitement from the existing players should rise on the hierarchy of MMP priorities.

In this context, no news is not good news. The players are expectant parents waiting to see their next child. MMP should give us more frequent sonograms just to whet the appetite. :cheeky:

 

[purdyrc]

Not jump on the bandwagon, but it is the excitement and playing of ASL by grognards that gets some of the "fresh blood" into the game. Anything that generates excitement from the existing players should rise on the hierarchy of MMP priorities.

In this context, no news is not good news. The players are expectant parents waiting to see their next child. MMP should give us more frequent sonograms just to whet the appetite. :cheeky:

All very good points.

I think the solution may be for MMP to simply produce everything all at once and immediately. No, wait a minute. That sounds too much like someone I put in my ignore list!

How about we agree that the rulebook and BV are critical to hooking newbies and "spice" products like AoO are important for keeping the Grogs happy. And MMP should work to satisfy both parties' priorities. Wait a minute, that sounds like one of the points I was trying to make with my earlier posts!

- Rick

 

[purdyrc]

I do like the "sonogram" anaology BTW! I'm all about the analogies.

- Rick

 

[da priest]

Well Rick you're all over the map here so let's break it down:

(1)The rulebook, despite what may or may not have been said, will be a money-maker just like all the other products MMP puts out....

Ah! but the key is: will it pay even equal to or better than the new stuff?

(2)Most dealers and distributors will not even talk to you unless you are willing to cut them a 30% or greater discount off the retail price and still more of the leaches want you to cut them a 40 or 50% discount.

I believe the current cut is in the "leach" category, the 40% figure was mentioned during a price increase some time ago.

(3)Assuming a 30% discount off of retail, MMP could sell the rulebook to dealers for about $56 ($80 minus 30% = $56) which is close to the pre-order discount on the MMP Website. Now MMP isn't going to give away the rulebook and not make a profit on all that hard work. After all, they've had to put up with a ton of abuse and name-calling in this and on other forums.

So this is 57.17(yours is off, should be 61.54), assume a 10% profit on the item or around $6.00 and that to the pre-pub difference and you get a little less than $9.00 per ASLRB. Assume they sell a little more pre-pub to 800 units(make it easy for the math-challenged), that's $7,200. Home exercise time, do the same for AoO, and whose feeding the baby?

(4)So one has to assume that the $56 is probably marked up at least 10-20% over what it actually costs to produce. After all, MMP has bills to pay too.

If we believe MMP that they are keeping the ASLRB/BV costs down for entry level folks, 10% is more likely, note for the Grog(Heroin addicts all) the profit is probably closer to the 20% figure(now go back and redo your math in the prior exercise), so whose feeding a lot of babies now?

(5)Therefore, MMP will make a lot money on each rulebook sold directly to consumers -

Define "a lot", less than 8 grand is a lot for the sh*t they put up with in the Forum?

(6)I'll give it to you that AoO will pay the bills - THIS YEAR (or next whenever it's produced and the pre-order credit cards have been charged) - but there is no way it will be a sustainable product at $112 for years to come. And the cost will only increase with inflation.....

Well really two points here:

6a: When AoO is converted to the new boards its price will be in the $75+ or- range.

6b: It is AoO for the year of its publication, and VotG for its year, and HP for its year, and....etc, out for at least 5 years.....one reason why I picked that time span in an earlier post.

(7)By contrast, the rulebook and BV will remain the bread-and-butter items for MMP in the future (aside from possibly the starter kits). ...These items will always be consistent sellers for them year-after-year.

Yes, consistent sellers at a few hundred units a year, not enuf to feed the Hasborg its fee, but enuf for office machine rent only, maybe.

Face it, the grogs feed the baby here, and crack the MMP Hasborg nut. MMP has to feed the grogs or the machine stops in about 5 years(about the length of the license agreement, another of many reasons to pick 5 years in my earlier post).

Maddox you're up next---more to come!:cheeky: