kdalton
Senior Member
Brian wasn't really implying that, but we get a lot of guff because SOME, and I do not by any means mean all or even the majority, distributors and retailers love to blame us. Hey, we do screw up. But more times than not, it isn't us dropping the ball.
BTW, thanks for the encouragement
So, thanks for sending me the details. We're going to follow up on this.
BTW, thanks for the encouragement
So, thanks for sending me the details. We're going to follow up on this.
Keith, Brian, Sorry
Keith & Brian:
Forgive me for shooting back too fast.... I do understand the relatively thankless position y'all are in. And I do understand the pricing issues. And as for "friends who run hobby stores," this isn't a guy who I buy stuff from. This is a friend who I called at home on his day off to get the distributor info for you. And he's a wanna-be-newb....
I really was trying to help.... And still will be. 8)
S
Keith & Brian:
Forgive me for shooting back too fast.... I do understand the relatively thankless position y'all are in. And I do understand the pricing issues. And as for "friends who run hobby stores," this isn't a guy who I buy stuff from. This is a friend who I called at home on his day off to get the distributor info for you. And he's a wanna-be-newb....
I really was trying to help.... And still will be. 8)
S
Petros
Member
Hi Evan,
Great questions to get back to. In response:
1 ‘Where is the ASL hobby headed?’
It doesn’t seem to be headed in a specific direction. Right now, designers either 1) improvise with various known production release models (HASL, HSASL), 2) experiment with other models. Let your imagination be your guide – but there seems to be no particular direction, just the helter-skelter of our imaginations.
IMO, officially, it appears to be headed: a) into post WWII venues (Korea – a logical) b) Historical Series WWII, c) maybe some AP releases (I hope) – not in that order.
2. ‘Which way should independent publishers go with future ideas?’
In the absence of official poll results, there will be no universally agreed direction one ‘should’ take – our community is just too varied and opinionated. That leaves you with a kind of philosophical answer: Wherever it’s most satisfying to you as the designer, because your rewards will be mostly gained in the process of design itself.
3. ‘Do you think there is too much ASL product out there in general or not enough?’
We’re collectors, designers, players – and it’s our hobby. You never get tired of more to collect/design/play. Just watching it evolve is interesting. And hell, it’s only carboard and how much can that cost?
It’s a cheap hobby and all of our wives should be thankful we don’t all collect automobiles.
4. ‘Are ASL product releases now just "ho hum" events or are they as exciting as in the past?’
Many are ho-hum, but not all. As exiting as in the past? Maybe not for the most part, but still lots of potential. I think the best new products will either be interesting and new variations on known themes (HASL, AP, HSASL), or as Christian Koppmeyer says, products that are innovative.
I think a good set of questions would explore those two areas (what makes a good ASL product, and what kinds of innovations would be worthwhile).
Don
Great questions to get back to. In response:
1 ‘Where is the ASL hobby headed?’
It doesn’t seem to be headed in a specific direction. Right now, designers either 1) improvise with various known production release models (HASL, HSASL), 2) experiment with other models. Let your imagination be your guide – but there seems to be no particular direction, just the helter-skelter of our imaginations.
IMO, officially, it appears to be headed: a) into post WWII venues (Korea – a logical) b) Historical Series WWII, c) maybe some AP releases (I hope) – not in that order.
2. ‘Which way should independent publishers go with future ideas?’
In the absence of official poll results, there will be no universally agreed direction one ‘should’ take – our community is just too varied and opinionated. That leaves you with a kind of philosophical answer: Wherever it’s most satisfying to you as the designer, because your rewards will be mostly gained in the process of design itself.
3. ‘Do you think there is too much ASL product out there in general or not enough?’
We’re collectors, designers, players – and it’s our hobby. You never get tired of more to collect/design/play. Just watching it evolve is interesting. And hell, it’s only carboard and how much can that cost?
It’s a cheap hobby and all of our wives should be thankful we don’t all collect automobiles.
4. ‘Are ASL product releases now just "ho hum" events or are they as exciting as in the past?’
Many are ho-hum, but not all. As exiting as in the past? Maybe not for the most part, but still lots of potential. I think the best new products will either be interesting and new variations on known themes (HASL, AP, HSASL), or as Christian Koppmeyer says, products that are innovative.
I think a good set of questions would explore those two areas (what makes a good ASL product, and what kinds of innovations would be worthwhile).
Don
kdalton
Senior Member
Hey, no prob. If there's a problem with a distributor, we want to try to fix it.
SSA415
I wasn't implying you're blowing smoke, if anything i'd be implying that someone along the distribution chain is...
For example, we had a customer write us MFing us, going nuts saying why weren't we serving his store, etc. We asked what store, he told us, we called the owner and asked why hadn't he placed an order and he said (and I quote) "I just haven't gotten around to it. "!!! He was telling his customers that we refused to ship to him and he never placed an order! (BTW, to this day that retailer has not placed an order with us, I wonder what he's saying about us nowadays?)
No one likes to be yelled at, have conflict, be confrontational, whatever. I think that store owners can easily blame vendors or distributors when something's amiss. Distributors can blame us. Who do we blame. :?
My eyes have opened considerably re: retail stores since we've been "doing" MMP. That is why I like to hear what vendors say (or write for those online guys who do ecatalogs).
Keith summed it up best, we're not perfect. But no way we're as bad as many retailers paint us.
Brian
I wasn't implying you're blowing smoke, if anything i'd be implying that someone along the distribution chain is...
For example, we had a customer write us MFing us, going nuts saying why weren't we serving his store, etc. We asked what store, he told us, we called the owner and asked why hadn't he placed an order and he said (and I quote) "I just haven't gotten around to it. "!!! He was telling his customers that we refused to ship to him and he never placed an order! (BTW, to this day that retailer has not placed an order with us, I wonder what he's saying about us nowadays?)
No one likes to be yelled at, have conflict, be confrontational, whatever. I think that store owners can easily blame vendors or distributors when something's amiss. Distributors can blame us. Who do we blame. :?
My eyes have opened considerably re: retail stores since we've been "doing" MMP. That is why I like to hear what vendors say (or write for those online guys who do ecatalogs).
Keith summed it up best, we're not perfect. But no way we're as bad as many retailers paint us.
Brian
FrankH.
Member
[quote="Brian
2) I have been adding 3-4 new users to our ASL player directory every week. I'm stunned by how many guys have been signing up for this.
Brian[/quote]
That sounds like good news!
Brian, I was wondering if the new users are tending to be more in the U. S., from overseas, or both?
Frank
2) I have been adding 3-4 new users to our ASL player directory every week. I'm stunned by how many guys have been signing up for this.
Brian[/quote]
That sounds like good news!
Brian, I was wondering if the new users are tending to be more in the U. S., from overseas, or both?
Frank
Cthulhu
Member
I know that The Game Castle in Fullerton, CA does not carry anything by MMP because they are owned by the same guy who is the distributor for the area and he doesn't make enough profit from MMP (at least that is what the employee I asked about it said).
I was going up to All-Star Games in Diamond Bar who carried MMP stuff, but both the owners died within a few weeks of each other near New Years, and I don't know if the store will remain open.
I was going up to All-Star Games in Diamond Bar who carried MMP stuff, but both the owners died within a few weeks of each other near New Years, and I don't know if the store will remain open.
kdalton
Senior Member
Did he say this before or after we increased his discount to 40 percent on all AH products and 50 percent on all Gamers products last October?
Quite frankly, we've done everything we can to make people aware of the new discount structure, so if 40 percent off retail is still too much, I don't know what else we can do.
Quite frankly, we've done everything we can to make people aware of the new discount structure, so if 40 percent off retail is still too much, I don't know what else we can do.
Matt Shostak
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Wow, there's quite a lot to talk about here.
First, about whether the hobby is dying etc. I think we need to make a distinction between "new players" and "young players" because I think we are unlikely to attract many new players below a certain age. However, I think there are probably a large number of guys a bit older who could still be attracted to the game. I'd like to get both groups, but I just think the younger generation is more into computer games for the most part. Does this mean that the hobby is dying? I don't know, but I do know that I plan to play ASL as long as I have opponents, and I work hard to keep my local gaming scene active. I encourage all others to do the same. Consider this about the older players though. As their children get older, it might be possible that these guys will actually have more time for ASL than they did previously and therefore want to play more as their kids enter high school and college.
What should publishers do? First off I think MMP should make the rulebook available for free download online (or maybe a nominal fee). Maybe I'm ignorant of business issues, but it seems to me that the cost of putting it online in pdf or html form would be very low, and it would solve that key problem of difficulty of entry for those who are interested. Also, iASL should be a top priority, and it needs to be a good product that can stand alone.
The TPPs should probably simply work on whatever turns them on, as long as it's legal. Chances are, that is what will turn the players on as well.
I think MMP needs to stay tight and friendly with the VASL group, because obviously that's a key way to get players into the game.
I kind of agree with Roy that we seem to have plenty of boards and counters. It's to the point now for me that I almost don't want to see any new counters, because I dread having to spray coat and clip them all (I always give them a protective seal).
I also like some of the other ideas expressed here about selling the system in a truly modular way. I guess only MMP can determine if that will work for them.
As to what kinds of scenarios and products we'd like to see, I'd like to see more things along the line's of Shelling's Kursk trio. I'd like to see some mini-CGs that are small enough to be playable, yet have some variety and choices. Like Roy said, choices are what it's all about. I think the system can also work well by stretching it forward to Korea and backward to the Spanish Civil War. I am looking forward to the Korea module. Is there a SCW one in the works?
Lastly I'd like to say that I'm very appreciative of what MMP has done, and I hope that as they get more experience they will become more efficient. With such a small group and so much work to do, they need to be very efficient.
First, about whether the hobby is dying etc. I think we need to make a distinction between "new players" and "young players" because I think we are unlikely to attract many new players below a certain age. However, I think there are probably a large number of guys a bit older who could still be attracted to the game. I'd like to get both groups, but I just think the younger generation is more into computer games for the most part. Does this mean that the hobby is dying? I don't know, but I do know that I plan to play ASL as long as I have opponents, and I work hard to keep my local gaming scene active. I encourage all others to do the same. Consider this about the older players though. As their children get older, it might be possible that these guys will actually have more time for ASL than they did previously and therefore want to play more as their kids enter high school and college.
What should publishers do? First off I think MMP should make the rulebook available for free download online (or maybe a nominal fee). Maybe I'm ignorant of business issues, but it seems to me that the cost of putting it online in pdf or html form would be very low, and it would solve that key problem of difficulty of entry for those who are interested. Also, iASL should be a top priority, and it needs to be a good product that can stand alone.
The TPPs should probably simply work on whatever turns them on, as long as it's legal. Chances are, that is what will turn the players on as well.
I think MMP needs to stay tight and friendly with the VASL group, because obviously that's a key way to get players into the game.
I kind of agree with Roy that we seem to have plenty of boards and counters. It's to the point now for me that I almost don't want to see any new counters, because I dread having to spray coat and clip them all (I always give them a protective seal).
I also like some of the other ideas expressed here about selling the system in a truly modular way. I guess only MMP can determine if that will work for them.
As to what kinds of scenarios and products we'd like to see, I'd like to see more things along the line's of Shelling's Kursk trio. I'd like to see some mini-CGs that are small enough to be playable, yet have some variety and choices. Like Roy said, choices are what it's all about. I think the system can also work well by stretching it forward to Korea and backward to the Spanish Civil War. I am looking forward to the Korea module. Is there a SCW one in the works?
Lastly I'd like to say that I'm very appreciative of what MMP has done, and I hope that as they get more experience they will become more efficient. With such a small group and so much work to do, they need to be very efficient.
TankDawg
Member
Hi Guys,
Following this discussion, I think you guys are REALLY going to like HoB's new concept!
http://www.natmallet.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1349#1349
Has been in the works for a couple years, but coincidentally hits some of the areas some of you are seeking.
Would like your thoughts and impressions.
Thanks!
Following this discussion, I think you guys are REALLY going to like HoB's new concept!
http://www.natmallet.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1349#1349
Has been in the works for a couple years, but coincidentally hits some of the areas some of you are seeking.
Would like your thoughts and impressions.
Thanks!
Jeff,
I like it. The stuff vindicates the design approach I took in the CH scenario, "Knifing the Bodyguard." Yours is probably better. The coincidences are freaky!
I'll have to play the teaser, at least. Thanks for sharing!
Now I have to get back to communicating via telepathy to Mr. Swann.
Oliver
I like it. The stuff vindicates the design approach I took in the CH scenario, "Knifing the Bodyguard." Yours is probably better. The coincidences are freaky!
I'll have to play the teaser, at least. Thanks for sharing!
Now I have to get back to communicating via telepathy to Mr. Swann.
Oliver
WinningerR
Recruit
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I agree that ASL is slowly dying, largely because of the grognard mentality that's overrun the product line. This isn't MMP's fault--it started years before AH gave up the ghost. While I still love it, I have to admit that the game has become unwieldy and teaching a newcomer how to play is an extremely daunting task. I'm trying to train a new player right now. He's a professional game designer who's played dozens of wargames for more than twenty years and I'm convinced it will still be years (playing every two weeks or so) before he is really up to speed and can enjoy everything the system has to offer.
Most of us learned this game over the course of ten plus years. I started with SL in 1979, then started playing ASL the day it was released, and I still routinely discover rules I've never played correctly--sometimes, major rules that come up every game. Imagine what it's like to be a newcomer trying to digest the entirety of the ASLRB plus fifteen years of Q&A and assorted articles in the General, the Annuals and the Journal (some of which are more critical to understanding the way people really play the game than anything that appears in the rulebooks).
In a strange way, the murky density of the rules has become the hobby. After all, most veteran ASLers spend far more time reading and re-reading the rules (and then discussing and interpreting them in forums like the ASLML) than actually playing the game.
I also completely agree with the earlier posters who have pointed out how hard it is for a newcomer to even understand what he needs to purchase in order to play the various scenarios, much less locate it all. I've followed the ASL releases pretty closely and I'll admit that I have no idea which module I need to buy to get, say, Board 3. I think the suggestion of selling national OBs, boards and scenario packs as separate components is outstanding.
Here's my dream and I know you're going to hate it. I'd like to see the return of SQUAD LEADER (the non-Advanced variety). Ideally, I'd like to see a new comprehensive SL rulebook that provides a much cleaner and simpler game system that's much friendlier to newbies. This system would trade off a lot of "realism" for vastly improved playability and comprehensability. Ideally, you could use these new SL rules with the existing ASL boards and components (sold separately as suggested above) to play just about ANY existing or future scenario. (Some scenarios might not be completely balanced under the new rules, but a major design goal would be producing a set of rules that has as little impact on the play balance of most existing scenarios as possible.) The new SL would be designed in such a way as to prepare its players to make the jump to ASL -- in fact, this SL would be largely a subset of the ASL rules (ASL is for "Advanced" players, while SL is for anybody).
Of course, some players may never graduate to full blown ASL. Some of these folks may not have the time to invest in digesting the whole ASLRB, or they may simply be interested in a faster, simpler game system that emphasizes playability. We may even see some grognards breathe a sigh of relief and retreat back to the simpler SL system so they can focus more on playing the game and less on continuously studying the rulebook (I'd definitely lean in that direction). Since the maps, components and even scenarios would be largely interchangeable, the existence of SL shouldn't hamper the further development of new ASL material in the least (or vice versa).
I'm aware of the iASL project that's in the works, but I think it only solves part of the problem. It may help a player learn some of the basic ASL rules but the fact remains that we're ultimately asking somebody to become as conversant with a set of procedures on the order of the Uniform Tax Code before they can truly join us (and start spending their $$ on MMP products).
Anyway, that's my two cents. If you MMPers are interested in a formal proposal in this direction, I'd be happy to write one up.
Most of us learned this game over the course of ten plus years. I started with SL in 1979, then started playing ASL the day it was released, and I still routinely discover rules I've never played correctly--sometimes, major rules that come up every game. Imagine what it's like to be a newcomer trying to digest the entirety of the ASLRB plus fifteen years of Q&A and assorted articles in the General, the Annuals and the Journal (some of which are more critical to understanding the way people really play the game than anything that appears in the rulebooks).
In a strange way, the murky density of the rules has become the hobby. After all, most veteran ASLers spend far more time reading and re-reading the rules (and then discussing and interpreting them in forums like the ASLML) than actually playing the game.
I also completely agree with the earlier posters who have pointed out how hard it is for a newcomer to even understand what he needs to purchase in order to play the various scenarios, much less locate it all. I've followed the ASL releases pretty closely and I'll admit that I have no idea which module I need to buy to get, say, Board 3. I think the suggestion of selling national OBs, boards and scenario packs as separate components is outstanding.
Here's my dream and I know you're going to hate it. I'd like to see the return of SQUAD LEADER (the non-Advanced variety). Ideally, I'd like to see a new comprehensive SL rulebook that provides a much cleaner and simpler game system that's much friendlier to newbies. This system would trade off a lot of "realism" for vastly improved playability and comprehensability. Ideally, you could use these new SL rules with the existing ASL boards and components (sold separately as suggested above) to play just about ANY existing or future scenario. (Some scenarios might not be completely balanced under the new rules, but a major design goal would be producing a set of rules that has as little impact on the play balance of most existing scenarios as possible.) The new SL would be designed in such a way as to prepare its players to make the jump to ASL -- in fact, this SL would be largely a subset of the ASL rules (ASL is for "Advanced" players, while SL is for anybody).
Of course, some players may never graduate to full blown ASL. Some of these folks may not have the time to invest in digesting the whole ASLRB, or they may simply be interested in a faster, simpler game system that emphasizes playability. We may even see some grognards breathe a sigh of relief and retreat back to the simpler SL system so they can focus more on playing the game and less on continuously studying the rulebook (I'd definitely lean in that direction). Since the maps, components and even scenarios would be largely interchangeable, the existence of SL shouldn't hamper the further development of new ASL material in the least (or vice versa).
I'm aware of the iASL project that's in the works, but I think it only solves part of the problem. It may help a player learn some of the basic ASL rules but the fact remains that we're ultimately asking somebody to become as conversant with a set of procedures on the order of the Uniform Tax Code before they can truly join us (and start spending their $$ on MMP products).
Anyway, that's my two cents. If you MMPers are interested in a formal proposal in this direction, I'd be happy to write one up.
Pitman
Forum Guru
With all due respect, I don't think that your comments are very much on target.
First, I don't see evidence that ASL is dying. ASL could very well be the "healthiest" wargame around. I can't think of any other board wargame that has as many tournaments, clubs, or such a large third party industry.
Second, although ASL is complicated, it is not difficult to learn. The notion that an experienced wargamer would, as you suggest, take years to learn ASL seems ridiculous to me. At the most recent Winter Offensive, there were several teenage ASLers who could kick ass. In fact, one of them beat me.
My own experience is also illuminating. A friend of mine and I decided to learn ASL about two years ago (we had played SL back in the day, and had bought ASL stuff, but hadn't played it). We took a month or so to familiarize ourselves with the rules, then started playing. In our first scenario, we probably spent more time looking up the rules than we did playing, but that rapidly changed. Some months later we went to ASLOK and discovered that, although we were clearly still novices, we could give people a challenging game. We had clearly learned the game--now all we had to do was master it.
Two years in, I have played somewhere in the neighborhood of 140 scenarios, I have playtested many scenarios, I have created a website full of ASL play aids (www.desperationmorale.com), I have written two articles that will be published this year in ASL publications, and have designed my own scenario pack, which will be published by a TPP this year.
If ASL were as difficult as you suggest, there is no way I could have done all of this. Moreover, I'm hardly the only person to have this experience. I have met many people in the process of learning ASL, and I submit that one can advance up the learning curve pretty quickly.
Now, having said this, I wouldn't mind at all if Squad Leader were re-released. It stands on its own as a great game. But I see no reason for ASL to lurch back to simplicity. ASL, as it is, is a great game.
First, I don't see evidence that ASL is dying. ASL could very well be the "healthiest" wargame around. I can't think of any other board wargame that has as many tournaments, clubs, or such a large third party industry.
Second, although ASL is complicated, it is not difficult to learn. The notion that an experienced wargamer would, as you suggest, take years to learn ASL seems ridiculous to me. At the most recent Winter Offensive, there were several teenage ASLers who could kick ass. In fact, one of them beat me.
My own experience is also illuminating. A friend of mine and I decided to learn ASL about two years ago (we had played SL back in the day, and had bought ASL stuff, but hadn't played it). We took a month or so to familiarize ourselves with the rules, then started playing. In our first scenario, we probably spent more time looking up the rules than we did playing, but that rapidly changed. Some months later we went to ASLOK and discovered that, although we were clearly still novices, we could give people a challenging game. We had clearly learned the game--now all we had to do was master it.
Two years in, I have played somewhere in the neighborhood of 140 scenarios, I have playtested many scenarios, I have created a website full of ASL play aids (www.desperationmorale.com), I have written two articles that will be published this year in ASL publications, and have designed my own scenario pack, which will be published by a TPP this year.
If ASL were as difficult as you suggest, there is no way I could have done all of this. Moreover, I'm hardly the only person to have this experience. I have met many people in the process of learning ASL, and I submit that one can advance up the learning curve pretty quickly.
Now, having said this, I wouldn't mind at all if Squad Leader were re-released. It stands on its own as a great game. But I see no reason for ASL to lurch back to simplicity. ASL, as it is, is a great game.
WinningerR
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First, I don't see evidence that ASL is dying. ASL could very well be the "healthiest" wargame around. I can't think of any other board wargame that has as many tournaments, clubs, or such a large third party industry.
That may be, but "healthiest" isn't necessarily healthy. As I understand it, ASL's "official" sales have fallen steadily almost since the game was introduced. If the hobby was truly healthy, MMP wouldn't have a problem keeping key components in print and wouldn't have had to resort to the pre-order system on the new products.
ASL definitely has a hardcore, die-hard fan base out there, but it's almost certainly shrinking ever so slightly each year. We're losing grognards through attrition and I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of new players picking up ASL is almost negligible.
Second, although ASL is complicated, it is not difficult to learn. The notion that an experienced wargamer would, as you suggest, take years to learn ASL seems ridiculous to me.
There's a big difference between learning enough to play a rudimentary game and truly understanding the system to the point where you're generally familiar with all the options and only rarely caught off guard by an unexpected rule; it's the latter experience that takes years to develop. Fewer players reach this stage than you probably realize. Notice that there are alot of players out there who won't play night, desert, caves or seaborne assaults simply because the rules are just too damn complicated.
If ASL were as difficult as you suggest, there is no way I could have done all of this.
By your own admission, you invest an enormous amount of time in ASL (140 games in just two years, plus all that rules reading, scanning the forums, designing and playtesting sounds like up to 20 hours per week). Unfortunately, that's the level of commitment necessary to play competently and with familiarity in such a short period of time. That's an awful steep price of admission and it's no wonder that it's hard to attract new players.
There's no question about the fact that ASL (in all its glory) is a difficult game to play. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be continuous rules debates, ever-expanding Q&A, etc. All too often, not even the experts agree as to what the rules are saying.
That may be, but "healthiest" isn't necessarily healthy. As I understand it, ASL's "official" sales have fallen steadily almost since the game was introduced. If the hobby was truly healthy, MMP wouldn't have a problem keeping key components in print and wouldn't have had to resort to the pre-order system on the new products.
ASL definitely has a hardcore, die-hard fan base out there, but it's almost certainly shrinking ever so slightly each year. We're losing grognards through attrition and I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of new players picking up ASL is almost negligible.
Second, although ASL is complicated, it is not difficult to learn. The notion that an experienced wargamer would, as you suggest, take years to learn ASL seems ridiculous to me.
There's a big difference between learning enough to play a rudimentary game and truly understanding the system to the point where you're generally familiar with all the options and only rarely caught off guard by an unexpected rule; it's the latter experience that takes years to develop. Fewer players reach this stage than you probably realize. Notice that there are alot of players out there who won't play night, desert, caves or seaborne assaults simply because the rules are just too damn complicated.
If ASL were as difficult as you suggest, there is no way I could have done all of this.
By your own admission, you invest an enormous amount of time in ASL (140 games in just two years, plus all that rules reading, scanning the forums, designing and playtesting sounds like up to 20 hours per week). Unfortunately, that's the level of commitment necessary to play competently and with familiarity in such a short period of time. That's an awful steep price of admission and it's no wonder that it's hard to attract new players.
There's no question about the fact that ASL (in all its glory) is a difficult game to play. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be continuous rules debates, ever-expanding Q&A, etc. All too often, not even the experts agree as to what the rules are saying.
Jeff Leslie
Member
I started with SL in 1977 and ASL in 1985, and I'll bet I haven't played 140 games since 1985. I agree that playing 140 games in a 2 year time period is playing a lot of ASL. I probably don't even have many more than 140 days off work in one year, so I can't imagine playing ASL on half my days off. That would be cool, but impossible. During my peak playing period in college, 1986-1990 (you can tell where my priorities were) I was playing maybe 3 times a week. Some of that was playing Red Barricades after it came out in 1989, so it may take several sessions to play what one would call a game.
I disagree that ASL itself is dying. I would say, however, that with the PC becoming prevalent from the mid-1990's on, that the entire board wargaming hobby in general has been dying. ASL is to board wargaming what the Hummer H1 is to the SUV; you can't compare it to anything else because it's in a class all by itself. If anything, I would say that there are more people playing (or interested in) ASL than there were back in the heyday, the late 80's - early 90's. The real stopper though is the fact that it's far easier for younger kids today to sit in front of the XBox and play HALO than it is for them to spread out ASL, take the time to learn it, and actually look their opponent in the face.
I also disagree completely with the statement that ASL is complicated but not difficult to learn. In fact, I would say that just the opposite is true. I don't think that ASL is at all complicated as far as the rules go, rather it is just very, very, detailed. Many folks interpret extreme detail as being complicated, especially when they see the size of the rulebook, and back away from ASL as if it was a rabid dog. Others are intrigued by the detail, and we are the ones that picked it up and played it. I've been saying it for many years and I'll keep on saying it - if it can happen in the real world, ASL has a rule for it. I've been in the US Army for over 21 years, all of it in the armor community, and while I have never seen real war I have seen what happens to men and machines under stress. Weapons break, people freak out and do weird things, and all plans are null and void when the first shot is fired. I can say with reasonable certainty that ASL pretty much covers it all. Mastering ASL comes through knowing the rules and being able to apply them in any given situation, and that only comes through experience. Just like WinningerR, I find myself constantly discovering rules that I've been playing wrong all these years, either because I've forgotten them (that's the first thing to go you know) or I never knew them to begin with.
I've been very critical of MMP and it's because I love ASL and hate the way its been treated by the only company out there that has the legal rights to produce official ASL products. The fact that a new player can't get into the system right now because the rulebook and key modules are out of print is not the way of a company that has a clear vision of the future. Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell Out of the Way.
I disagree that ASL itself is dying. I would say, however, that with the PC becoming prevalent from the mid-1990's on, that the entire board wargaming hobby in general has been dying. ASL is to board wargaming what the Hummer H1 is to the SUV; you can't compare it to anything else because it's in a class all by itself. If anything, I would say that there are more people playing (or interested in) ASL than there were back in the heyday, the late 80's - early 90's. The real stopper though is the fact that it's far easier for younger kids today to sit in front of the XBox and play HALO than it is for them to spread out ASL, take the time to learn it, and actually look their opponent in the face.
I also disagree completely with the statement that ASL is complicated but not difficult to learn. In fact, I would say that just the opposite is true. I don't think that ASL is at all complicated as far as the rules go, rather it is just very, very, detailed. Many folks interpret extreme detail as being complicated, especially when they see the size of the rulebook, and back away from ASL as if it was a rabid dog. Others are intrigued by the detail, and we are the ones that picked it up and played it. I've been saying it for many years and I'll keep on saying it - if it can happen in the real world, ASL has a rule for it. I've been in the US Army for over 21 years, all of it in the armor community, and while I have never seen real war I have seen what happens to men and machines under stress. Weapons break, people freak out and do weird things, and all plans are null and void when the first shot is fired. I can say with reasonable certainty that ASL pretty much covers it all. Mastering ASL comes through knowing the rules and being able to apply them in any given situation, and that only comes through experience. Just like WinningerR, I find myself constantly discovering rules that I've been playing wrong all these years, either because I've forgotten them (that's the first thing to go you know) or I never knew them to begin with.
I've been very critical of MMP and it's because I love ASL and hate the way its been treated by the only company out there that has the legal rights to produce official ASL products. The fact that a new player can't get into the system right now because the rulebook and key modules are out of print is not the way of a company that has a clear vision of the future. Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell Out of the Way.
Pitman
Forum Guru
It is not very difficult to get 140 scenarios played in two years. If I did VASL, as many do, I'd have a lot more. Many of the scenarios were played in a few tournaments or other group ASL events:
ASLOK 2001 & 2002: 18 scenarios total
Winter Offensive 2002 & 2003: 11 scenarios total (I think)
Detroit Office Fest May 2002, Sept 2002, Jan 2003: about 10 scenarios.
Rod Callen's N. Ky ASL fest: about 5 scenarios
Origins 2002: 5 scenarios or so.
That's about 49 right there. That means I played about 90 other scenarios, which averages less than one a week.
ASLOK 2001 & 2002: 18 scenarios total
Winter Offensive 2002 & 2003: 11 scenarios total (I think)
Detroit Office Fest May 2002, Sept 2002, Jan 2003: about 10 scenarios.
Rod Callen's N. Ky ASL fest: about 5 scenarios
Origins 2002: 5 scenarios or so.
That's about 49 right there. That means I played about 90 other scenarios, which averages less than one a week.