CyberRanger
Member
Please elaborate on your deployment TO choice!
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Which deployment TO do you plan to use?
- Thread starter CyberRanger
- Start date
Heinz57
Member
"Stalin quickly realized that Zhukov and Vasilevsky had been right. The most effective way to smash the attempt to relieve Paulus's army was by blocking Hoth's advance on the Myshkova, while delivering the decisively blow elsewhere..." -- Stalingrad by Antony Beevor
Presuming this is a secure forum, but if it isn't -- the Axis are still doomed...
Many points of relevance starting with the degree of support provided by 1st Gds and penalties with the vast majority of everything w/o a maroon background. The penalties apply both defensively and offensively. Wintergewitter (the scenario) is more about the Soviet offensive than it is the Axis attempt to save Sixth Army. Applying 2nd Gds as a blocking force or for defensive actions blunts its offensive potential. Stalingrad is worth a max of 30 VP...120 Vp reside well outside the pocket. While 51st Army may not stop 57 PzK, Don Front can help keep it at bay, and if absolutely necessary, 5th Tank Army can also lend a hand.
Maximize offensive capacity -- with the sole exception of the Stalingrad Pocket, the Axis have zero reason to engage in dramatic offensives as they hold all objectives from the beginning. Once some of these are taken, there would be reason for Axis offensives...suffice that examination of what the Axis have on the lines across the total front lends scrutiny to how well they can maintain a line along two sides of a bulge reaching toward Stalingrad.
Heinz57
Presuming this is a secure forum, but if it isn't -- the Axis are still doomed...
Many points of relevance starting with the degree of support provided by 1st Gds and penalties with the vast majority of everything w/o a maroon background. The penalties apply both defensively and offensively. Wintergewitter (the scenario) is more about the Soviet offensive than it is the Axis attempt to save Sixth Army. Applying 2nd Gds as a blocking force or for defensive actions blunts its offensive potential. Stalingrad is worth a max of 30 VP...120 Vp reside well outside the pocket. While 51st Army may not stop 57 PzK, Don Front can help keep it at bay, and if absolutely necessary, 5th Tank Army can also lend a hand.
Maximize offensive capacity -- with the sole exception of the Stalingrad Pocket, the Axis have zero reason to engage in dramatic offensives as they hold all objectives from the beginning. Once some of these are taken, there would be reason for Axis offensives...suffice that examination of what the Axis have on the lines across the total front lends scrutiny to how well they can maintain a line along two sides of a bulge reaching toward Stalingrad.
Heinz57
Southern Dandy
Member
Hi all!
I voted for the north deployment and will most likely use that as my option in the game. As an Axis playtester of the scenario, I'll again re-emphasize that reserves are few and far between for the Axis side.
That means that one of the primary considerations for the Axis player is to keep the lines short and on the Don River as long as possible. Conversely, the most likely area to easily and quickly expand the lines the Axis player is trying to hold would either be against the Italians in the north, or the Rumanians in the south. Since there's much more room to roam across the northern part of the map, as well as the bulk of the Axis supply points, it makes more sense to me to hit hard from the north and cause the Axis player as many headaches as I can.
I may yet change my mind to a central deployment, but the more I think about it, the more and more likely I'll be using a northern one, especially in conjunction with other TOs.
John
I voted for the north deployment and will most likely use that as my option in the game. As an Axis playtester of the scenario, I'll again re-emphasize that reserves are few and far between for the Axis side.
That means that one of the primary considerations for the Axis player is to keep the lines short and on the Don River as long as possible. Conversely, the most likely area to easily and quickly expand the lines the Axis player is trying to hold would either be against the Italians in the north, or the Rumanians in the south. Since there's much more room to roam across the northern part of the map, as well as the bulk of the Axis supply points, it makes more sense to me to hit hard from the north and cause the Axis player as many headaches as I can.
I may yet change my mind to a central deployment, but the more I think about it, the more and more likely I'll be using a northern one, especially in conjunction with other TOs.
John
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CyberRanger
Member
I'm sure it is. The only non-Soviet players who can see it are S. HEAT, Mantis, and PanzerPelle (the scenario designer.)Heinz57 said:
I totally agree! Don't get caught up in the emotion of keeping the pocket sealed!!!!Heinz57 said:
In game terms, it's not that important. IF the Germans relieve the pocket, he is faced with a tough decision. If he tries to hold onto Stalingrad, he's front is impossible long, especially with the Soviet Guards Armies destroying his NW flank. If he withdraws from Stalingrad, he won't have any chance of getting the 10 extra bonus vp points but he will be able to stop you us from getting the 5 extra bonus points (the HQ bonus points.) Since the scenario objective vp points increased to 150, those extra 5 points are NOT worth creating a strategy around.
Also, regardless of whether the pocket is relieved or not, the 6th Army will still start falling apart all by itself. You just need to help push it along. From the scenario briefing:
Relieving the pocket does not change this! (Hmm ... the briefing says 2% in another area.)
So ... I plan to take the northern deployment with the early DON reinforcements. All use those reinforcements to support my attack.
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Eric Weider
Member
i am going north! and i am thinking of going on turn 2... is it against the rules to start little saturn on turn on turn 2?
CyberRanger
Member
No, but a lot of the northern units are still frozen until turn 4.Keef said:
Okay, if I've got this straight, we are aiming for one deployment TO, and one non-deployment TO.
Since it's likely the Axis will penetrate the * perimeter and release Don front reserves, then there is no need to choose that as a TO.
So I'm thinking I will go with Little Saturn (non-deployment), and 2nd Guards for the North (deployment) for my two TO's. This will limit the Axis player to 2 TO's as well, which I think is what we want.
Question: No one seems to be voting for 2nd Guards central deployment. Seems like that could serve two purposes: to pressure the Stalingrad pocket and/or swing North and create problems there as well.
Any thoughts?
I am playing Bruce who I fought to a draw as Allies in round 3, so I believe we are evenly matched opponents. Pursuing the historical options could help to swing things my way, if I'm understanding the posts correctly.
Decisons, decisions...
:crosseye:
JoeBob
Since it's likely the Axis will penetrate the * perimeter and release Don front reserves, then there is no need to choose that as a TO.
So I'm thinking I will go with Little Saturn (non-deployment), and 2nd Guards for the North (deployment) for my two TO's. This will limit the Axis player to 2 TO's as well, which I think is what we want.
Question: No one seems to be voting for 2nd Guards central deployment. Seems like that could serve two purposes: to pressure the Stalingrad pocket and/or swing North and create problems there as well.
Any thoughts?
I am playing Bruce who I fought to a draw as Allies in round 3, so I believe we are evenly matched opponents. Pursuing the historical options could help to swing things my way, if I'm understanding the posts correctly.
Decisons, decisions...
:crosseye:
JoeBob
CyberRanger
Member
So far ... I'm the only one who has voted for the deployment plus one TO option. I plan to deploy north and take the "DON Front Reinforcements" TO. (I think this is by far the best Soviet TO.) So that's one deployment and one non-deployment TO.JoeBob said:
I do not intend to agree to the one deployment and two non-deployment TO's. IMO, I can easily get the "DON Front anywhere" TO for free by letting the Axis penetrate the **** boundary ... so why use a TO for that and why ask for two non-deployment TO's so you can select that one?
And .. IMO ... having two non-deployment TO's is not worth it. I'd rather make the Axis decide between early release of 1st Pz Army vs early arrival of that Pz division than giving him 2 non-deployment TO's just so I can get Little Saturn. In my book, that's just not worth it.
I considered center ... and almost went that way at first. But, if my main plan is a strong attack from the north, I want all the Guards together AND I'll send my Don Front reinforcements that way too and not to Stalingrad.
BTW - If my Axis opponent insists on a deployment TO and two non-deployment TO's, we will be playing an historical game because I won't agree to that. I figure the historical game is the deployment I want and at least I have Little Saturn active on turn 5.