Where oh Where are the scenarios with a dozen plus PzII's

Actionjick

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Not equivalent battles.

A T-34 can DI a Pz VI but a Mk II could not DI a Matilda,.. ever.

Likewise, a flank shot from a T-34 can kill a Pz VI but a flank shot from a Mk II does nothing.

A critical hit from a T-34 v Pz VI will mean a dead Pz VI. A critical hit from a Pz II v Matilda II would only kill on a 2 or 3, immobilise on a 4.

In short, two Matilda II would mop the floor with 18 Pz II much more effectively than two Pz VI could v 18 T34.
Nice analysis. Not really looking for equivalency, just burning armor and mayhem!!

Maybe six more Pz IIs. A real swarm!
 

von Marwitz

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In short, two Matilda II would mop the floor with 18 Pz II much more effectively than two Pz VI could v 18 T34.
That is if the Matilda IIs would be fast enough to ever get close enough to the Pz IIs, which would scurry away while there is time.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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Nice analysis. Not really looking for equivalency, just burning armor and mayhem!!

Maybe six more Pz IIs. A real swarm!
Make the additional six AFVs Pz IILs. This would give the OP dozens of Pz IIs and the 18 MP of the IIL would give the Brits something to think about.

Have an SSR where its tea time and all the British AFVs are unmanned. Just a thought 😉🤔🥰.
 

The Purist

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Well,... a Pz II was meant as a stand in until the Pz III was developed but grew to be a good recce tank in the early pz battalions. As such they aren't meant to to fight other tanks. Truth be told they never were used in the tank v tank role and would simply get out of the way of the AT guns and artillery or German mediums. . If AT guns were not available or could not be deployed, the Germans mediums could be used - although that wasn't their first role either.

The entire scenario is based on a myth that the Germans had to fight French tanks with Pz IIs and still won.... never happened. At least not in the manner many believe it did. 😉

A more representative enagement between the British and German armour in May 40 would be "Ad Hoc at Beaurains". Here the Germans of 7th Pz Div threw everything in front of the few Matilda IIs in France, desperate to stop a breakthrough.
 
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Actionjick

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Well,... a Pz II was meant as a stand in until the Pz III was developed but grew to be a good recce tank in the early pz battalions. As such they aren't meant to to fight other tanks. Truth be told they never were used in the tank v tank role and would simply get out of the way of the AT guns and artillery or German mediums. . If AT guns were not available or could not be deployed, the Germans mediums could be used - although that wasn't their first role either.

The entire scenario is based on a myth that the Germans had to fight French tanks with Pz IIs and still won.... never happened. At least not in the manner many believe it did. 😉

A more representative enagement between the British and German armour in May 40 would be "Ad Hoc at Beaurains". Her the Germans of 7th Pz Div through everything in front of the few Matilda IIs in France in desperation to stop a breakthrough.
Really liked Ad Hoc. Early war armor cool stuff.
 

Actionjick

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Well,... a Pz II was meant as a stand in until the Pz III was developed but grew to be a good recce tank in the early pz battalions. As such they aren't meant to to fight other tanks. Truth be told they never were used in the tank v tank role and would simply get out of the way of the AT guns and artillery or German mediums. . If AT guns were not available or could not be deployed, the Germans mediums could be used - although that wasn't their first role either.

The entire scenario is based on a myth that the Germans had to fight French tanks with Pz IIs and still won.... never happened. At least not in the manner many believe it did. 😉

A more representative enagement between the British and German armour in May 40 would be "Ad Hoc at Beaurains". Her the Germans of 7th Pz Div through everything in front of the few Matilda IIs in France in desperation to stop a breakthrough.
Remember the VC is based on exiting units, not killing Matildas. The other British AFVs will be inferior and easily taken out by the Panzerschwarm.

This would have been the kind of DYO we would've grooved on. Doesn't have to be based on an actual event, or have historically accurate unit composition or be balanced. Just something to have fun with.

I guess more of a Modify Your Own than a DYO.
 
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von Marwitz

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The entire scenario is based on a myth that the Germans had to fight French tanks with Pz IIs and still won.... never happened. At least not in the manner many believe it did.
Indeed it happened in a different manner. The truth is that the Pz II's drove up to the French tanks and then the tank commander would throw Sauerkraut to obscure the vision slits of the French. When the latter emerged to clear the vision slits, they were shot by the German tank commanders by pistol. The French tanks went down in droves...

Afterwards, for propaganda purposes, the Pz IIs charged the despatched French tanks, blazing at them with their 20mm Guns. This made for more fancy pictures and obscured the winning Kraut tactic.

The German rules of engagement and details on this tactic were captured by the Russians close to the end of the war in Wünsdorf near Zossen. Stalin was fuming when it was revealed that the same tactic was used successfully against the heavy KW tanks in 1941 and he subsequently "cleansed" close to a dozen generals whom had withheld this information back then for fear of retaliation - rightly so as we see. Because Stalin felt the affair an absolute embarrasment - rightly so again - the whole thing was shoved beneath the carpet and locked up in inaccessible archives.

It was in the Gorbatchev era, when many archives were opened that the affair came to light - sort of. A promising Russian historian by the name of Dr. Jevgeniev Vorobyov stumbled onto these documents and worked on a paper that was intended to be published in the spring of 1993. However, his research had attracted unwanted attention by the old nomenclatura and Dr. Vorobyov was found floating dead one morning on the banks of the Moskva. The crime could never be attributed, but mysteriously, his groundbreaking evidence, his paper, and the material in the archives where he had worked, had vanished without a trace.

After that, no one cared or dared to follow up on the matter...


von Marwitz
 
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Sparafucil3

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Indeed it happened in a different manner. The truth is that the Pz II's drove up to the French tanks and then the tank commander would throw Sauerkraut to obscure the vision slits of the French. When the latter emerged to clear the vision slits, they were shot by the German tank commanders with by pistol. The French tanks went down in droves...

Afterwards, for propaganda purposes, the Pz IIs charged the despatched French tanks, blazing at them with their 20mm Guns. This made for more fancy pictures and propaganda and obscured the winning Kraut tactic.

The German rules of engagement and details on this tactic were captured by the Russians close to the end of the war in Wünsdorf near Zossen. Stalin was fuming when it was revealed that the same tactic was used successfully against the heavy KW tanks in 1941 and he subsequently "cleansed" close to a dozen generals whom had withheld this information back then for fear of retaliation - rightly so as we see. Because Stalin felt the affair an absolute embarresment - rightly so again - the whole thing was shoved beneath the carpet and locked up in inaccessible archives.

It was in the Gorbatchev era, when many archives were opened and the affair came to light - sort of. A promising Russian historian by the name of Dr. Jevgeniev Vorobyov stumbled onto these documents and worked on a paper that was intended to be published in the spring of 1993. His research had attracted unwanted attention by the old nomenclatura and Dr. Vorobyov was found floating dead one morning on the banks of the Moskva. The crime could never be attributed, but mysteriously, his groundbreaking evidence, his paper, and the material in the archives where he had worked, had vanished without trace.

After that, no one cared or dared to follow up on the matter...


von Marwitz
Paging @Tuomo. I want to make sure you saw the German entry for this years Spuddies. -- jim
 

daveramsey

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Check these out: (quantity of tanks for any given side)

Code:
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
| title                            | q    | sa_scen_id |
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
| The Downfall                     |   91 |      60754 |
| The Guards Hasty Attack          |   78 |      61832 |
| Flying Turrets                   |   70 |      61354 |
| The Guards Hasty Attack          |   69 |      61832 |
| Orgy of Gore                     |   61 |      60986 |
| Utmost Savagery                  |   60 |      56144 |
| The Storming of Tauroggen        |   50 |      62816 |
| Götterdämmerung                  |   48 |      59606 |
| As Good As They Got              |   47 |      63014 |
| Destroy All Monsters             |   46 |      60035 |
| Destroy All Monsters             |   44 |      60035 |
| Symphony of Violence             |   41 |      59787 |
| Beast at Bay                     |   41 |      56123 |
| In the Bag                       |   40 |      56460 |
| A Special Valor                  |   40 |      56143 |
| As Good As They Got              |   40 |      63014 |
| Take the Rhino by the Horn       |   39 |      59367 |
| Breaking Berlin                  |   39 |      60748 |
| Delaying the 9th Panzer Division |   39 |      65127 |
| In the Bag                       |   38 |      56801 |
| Hammer of the Guards             |   38 |      62819 |
| Clash Along the Psel             |   38 |      56301 |
| Orgy of Gore                     |   38 |      60986 |
| Crisis at Knightsbridge          |   38 |      61016 |
| The End of the Line              |   38 |      57078 |
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
 

Michael Dorosh

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Hill 621 not the scenario I was thinking of. OMLI. Old man losing it.

Scenario had a ton of T-34s attacking Germans on hill with Tigers. Think intro talked about fire brigade plugging holes in the line. Any clue?
On the contrary, a French v German Hill 621 still sounds like a fun idea...
 

Michael Dorosh

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Check these out: (quantity of tanks for any given side)

Code:
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
| title                            | q    | sa_scen_id |
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
| The Downfall                     |   91 |      60754 |
| The Guards Hasty Attack          |   78 |      61832 |
| Flying Turrets                   |   70 |      61354 |
| The Guards Hasty Attack          |   69 |      61832 |
| Orgy of Gore                     |   61 |      60986 |
| Utmost Savagery                  |   60 |      56144 |
| The Storming of Tauroggen        |   50 |      62816 |
| Götterdämmerung                  |   48 |      59606 |
| As Good As They Got              |   47 |      63014 |
| Destroy All Monsters             |   46 |      60035 |
| Destroy All Monsters             |   44 |      60035 |
| Symphony of Violence             |   41 |      59787 |
| Beast at Bay                     |   41 |      56123 |
| In the Bag                       |   40 |      56460 |
| A Special Valor                  |   40 |      56143 |
| As Good As They Got              |   40 |      63014 |
| Take the Rhino by the Horn       |   39 |      59367 |
| Breaking Berlin                  |   39 |      60748 |
| Delaying the 9th Panzer Division |   39 |      65127 |
| In the Bag                       |   38 |      56801 |
| Hammer of the Guards             |   38 |      62819 |
| Clash Along the Psel             |   38 |      56301 |
| Orgy of Gore                     |   38 |      60986 |
| Crisis at Knightsbridge          |   38 |      61016 |
| The End of the Line              |   38 |      57078 |
+----------------------------------+------+------------+
Orgy of Gore is there twice? I take it these figures are for tanks "per side"?

That HAS to be ESG - I know "Destroy all Monsters" is as it resides in one of my binders.
 

Actionjick

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Make the additional six AFVs Pz IILs. This would give the OP dozens of Pz IIs and the 18 MP of the IIL would give the Brits something to think about.

Have an SSR where its tea time and all the British AFVs are unmanned. Just a thought 😉🤔🥰.
The other two British AFVs could be Mk VI Cs. I keep thinking about this modification.
 
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