Where oh Where are the scenarios with a dozen plus PzII's

macrobo

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Hi All (and in particular Paul)

The unsung hero of the battle of France! THE PANZER II (OFTEN AN "F" MODEL) was stated in a magazine article the other day yet this is not the ASL experience - this comment was stimulated by my getting the new French module and in particular the river crossing Dinant - though as a tread head I realise that they did not cross rivers with tanks (they sank!)

The say 40-50% of the Panzer Divisions were made up of this little tank they call the workhorse - 3+ light platoons per company so 100's in the Panzer Divisions 3, 4, 7 and 10 that we play when we play France 1940!!! but where are they - they were meant to swarm in groups of 12-24 and overwhelm French positions - show me an ASL scenario representing that!

Why am I troubled as a tread head seeking that rumbling tank experience of PZIIs.
Well.... ASL had lots of Games where there is a dozen + T34's, Shermans and Mk4's which swarm away in 44 and 45 and makes lots of sense - there are also Tank heavy games in the Desert! etc (PZIIs did poorly in the desert due to dust etc so I am ok with not many there)

Sure we have lots of Games with 2 or 3 PzIIs but always like recon vehicles they have their heavier PzIIIF and PzIVC friends to help them - yet they were the main tank in a Panzer division not a recon vehicle

I did the big search - nothing official from MMP beyond a 5 PzII tank game (with lots of other tanks) - my only sucess came from CH including (a) Bitter Tag had a Monster with 12 PzIIF's in amongst lots of tanks (b) Stone Heights no 6 and 7 both had 8 and 6 PzII's respectively and - and I looked at all the old LeFT (particularly LeFT #11), Vae Victicus, Tactiques (Tac 33 had 5), Fanatic Enterprises as well as lots of random ones. I searched scenario archive, ROAR and just google but alas for the main tank of a Panzer division we just don't see the swarm that supposedly historically occurred! AND I MISS THE FEELING!

Does anyone know why Tread Heads are deprived that experience ?
Thanks in advance for your comments

Cheers

Rob :)
 
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A_T_Great

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Because nobody decided to create a scenario to represent that.
 

Faded 8-1

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Typically scenarios don't have a dozen of the same type of tank. Probably because there typically aren't a dozen of any one type in the countermix. Are there twelve Pz IIs in BV? In all official modules combined?
 

von Marwitz

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Typically scenarios don't have a dozen of the same type of tank. Probably because there typically aren't a dozen of any one type in the countermix. Are there twelve Pz IIs in BV? In all official modules combined?
Good point.

I reckon, he would be content with half a dozen PzII's with a couple of PSWs and PzI's or Pz III's thrown in for good measure.

von Marwitz
 

R Hooks

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Hi All (and in particular Paul)

The unsung hero of the battle of France! THE PANZER II (OFTEN AN "F" MODEL) was stated in a magazine article the other day yet this is not the ASL experience - this comment was stimulated by my getting the new French module and in particular the river crossing Dinant - though as a tread head I realise that they did not cross rivers with tanks (they sank!)

The say 40-50% of the Panzer Divisions were made up of this little tank they call the workhorse - 3+ light platoons per company so 100's in the Panzer Divisions 3, 4, 7 and 10 that we play when we play France 1940!!! but where are they - they were meant to swarm in groups of 12-24 and overwhelm French positions - show me an ASL scenario representing that!

Why am I troubled as a tread head seeking that rumbling tank experience of PZIIs.
Well.... ASL had lots of Games where there is a dozen + T34's, Shermans and Mk4's which swarm away in 44 and 45 and makes lots of sense - there are also Tank heavy games in the Desert! etc (PZIIs did poorly in the desert due to dust etc so I am ok with not many there)

Sure we have lots of Games with 2 or 3 PzIIs but always like recon vehicles they have their heavier PzIIIF and PzIVC friends to help them - yet they were the main tank in a Panzer division not a recon vehicle

I did the big search - nothing official from MMP beyond a 5 PzII tank game (with lots of other tanks) - my only sucess came from CH including (a) Bitter Tag had a Monster with 12 PzIIF's in amongst lots of tanks (b) Stone Heights no 6 and 7 both had 8 and 6 PzII's respectively and - and I looked at all the old LeFT, Vae Victicus, Tactiques, Fanatic Enterprises as well as lots of random ones. I searched scenario archive and just google but alas for the main tank of a Panzer division we just don't see the swarm that supposedly historically occurred! AND I MISS THE FEELING!

Does anyone know why Tread Heads are deprived that experience ?
Thanks in advance for your comments

Cheers

Rob :)
I feel your pain, I'd like to see more swarm battles too. But I suspect the playtest is a B&$%^.
 

Faded 8-1

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I guess it could be a VASL only scenario. Or you could proxy them using other tanks.

Personally I'd prefer the latter. Something as glorious as 24 shitty early-war tanks charging across 2 open ground boards towards a village is something I want to see on a real table.
 

macrobo

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I guess it could be a VASL only scenario. Or you could proxy them using other tanks.

Personally I'd prefer the latter. Something as glorious as 24 shitty early-war tanks charging across 2 open ground boards towards a village is something I want to see on a real table.

I would personally disagree with Shitty! _ Paul May Chime in - PzIIF's have the same frontal armour of the the PzIIIFs - a royal 3 Frontal - moves as fast and puts 8 FP at infantry like a PzIIIF or the Czec tanks

So 24 cool little wagons would be lovely to see!!

Rob :love:
 

Michael Dorosh

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You'd be better off researching an actual battle where that many tanks fought it out. I suspect the PzKpw II was not used in massive dogfights in the manner you describe - possibly in the desert early on.
 
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macrobo

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You'd be better off researching an actual battle where that many tanks fought it out. I suspect the PzKpw II was not used in massive dogfights in the manner you describe - possibly in the desert early on. But
Hi Michael

I am not the military historian alas but there is a death of things beyond statements like "The German army used about 1,000 Pz. IIs in each of the invasions of Poland, France, and the Soviet Union "

and

They would have been of little or no use in a clash with strong British or French armoured forces, but one key element of the German “sickle cut” plan was that it would reduce the chance of any such clash taking place. The Panzer divisions were concentrated into armoured spearheads, while the theoretically stronger French tank forces were distributed evenly along the entire front. After Guderian’s strong armoured corps had broken through the French front line on the Meuse, his light tanks were perfectly capable of brushing aside the light resistance they encountered on the dash to the coast. In the first ten days of the campaign, from 10-20 May, only 45 Panzer IIs were reported to have been lost (this figure probably only includes tanks that were written off). This represents just under 5% of their original strength on 10 May. In comparison 7.4% of Panzer IIIs and 5% of Panzer IVs had been lost.

So maybe there was never a clash?

as for reading Dinant or other battles - maybe they never talked about the German Panzer II

Thanks for commenting all

Rob :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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They would have been of little or no use in a clash with strong British or French armoured forces, but one key element of the German “sickle cut” plan was that it would reduce the chance of any such clash taking place. The Panzer divisions were concentrated into armoured spearheads, while the theoretically stronger French tank forces were distributed evenly along the entire front. After Guderian’s strong armoured corps had broken through the French front line on the Meuse, his light tanks were perfectly capable of brushing aside the light resistance they encountered on the dash to the coast. In the first ten days of the campaign, from 10-20 May, only 45 Panzer IIs were reported to have been lost (this figure probably only includes tanks that were written off). This represents just under 5% of their original strength on 10 May. In comparison 7.4% of Panzer IIIs and 5% of Panzer IVs had been lost.

So maybe there was never a clash?

:)
I think you've summed it up well. In Poland, the Germans were actually quite timid with their armor and used tanks mostly for infantry support.

In France, they were obviously a bit more daring, but I wonder if the PzKpfw II wasn't used more for scouting or flank protection.
 

Faded 8-1

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I would personally disagree with Shitty! _ Paul May Chime in - PzIIF's have the same frontal armour of the the PzIIIFs - a royal 3 Frontal - moves as fast and puts 8 FP at infantry like a PzIIIF or the Czec tanks

So 24 cool little wagons would be lovely to see!!

Rob :love:
Don't get me wrong - I meant it with the greatest of affection. I love early war stuff.
 

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I believe Macrabo has got it probably closer to the truth of what it was (SWAG) as doctrine probably used these lighter tanks in exploitation or recon for the Pz Rgt more than in engagements of an armor (amour) struggle [Remember, a lot of armor doctrine was being created/modified on the fly as battlefield situations dictated early on]. Though the 7th Panzer Div fielded approximately half of the armored forces consisting of Pz I's (2 Plts worth) or Pz II's (4 Plts worth), most of the heavy lifting (e.g. fighting through prepared enemy defensive positions or armor vs. armor) was conducted by the Pz 38(t)'s (6 Plts worth) and the Pz IV's (2 Plts) in their 25th Pz Rgt [The 7th PzD was supposedly not equipped with Pz III's]. Some Pz Divs, such as the 1st PzD, fielded a greater portion of their armored strength in the smaller Pz I & Pz II's (approximately 50%+ of their total armor allotment) but these divisions were used mostly on the northern thrust thru Holland & upper Belgium and expected less anti-armor engagements. By the Time Barbarossa rolled around the use of large numbers of Pz II's (almost no Pz I's still used in active combat Pz Bns) had been drastically reduced to less than 25% of the total armor allotment in their Pz Regts and some to as few as 15% of their armor strength. Even as early as the end of July 1941 this had again been drastically reduced as more heavily equipped Pzs were being received in the regiments and front-line Pz Bns while the Pz II's had been shunted to recon operations, to provide security in rear areas or used as command vehicles.
 

The Purist

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Most panzer divisions has a significant number of Pz IIs even though battalion (paper) strength called for 25 per battalion (5 at HQ for recce, 5 with each of the line companies, also for recce).

Note not all the early models (Pz IIA in the game) had been uparmoured by May 40.

A 1940 panzer battalions was supposed have the following:

Bn HQ - 2 x Pz III, 5 x Pz II
Coy 1, 2 and 3 - 17 Pz III, 5 Pz II
Coy 4 - 14 Pz IV, 5 Pz II

Total 25 Pz II, 53 Pz III, 14 Pz IV = 92 tanks. With four battalions per div (2 reg'ts) that would be 368 tanks plus command versions (no main gun, extra radios)

100 Pz II, 212 Pz III, 56 Pz IV

Needless to say German industry had zero chance of providing these numbers, so...

On May 10 the pz divs had the following strengths (only 'Cmd Tk' had full receiver and transmitter radio set up with long range antennas, no main armament :

Attacking Sedan (4 bn in two reg't per div)
Pz Div 1 - 52 Pz I, 98 Pz II, 58 Pz III, 40 Pz IV, 8 Cmd Tk
Pz Div 2 - 55 Pz I, 115 Pz II, 58 Pz III, 45 Pz IV, 16 Cmd Tk
Pz Div 10 - 44 Pz I, 113 Pz II, 58 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 18 Cmd Tk

Attacking Montherme (3 bn in one reg't per div)
Pz Div 6 - 60 Pz II, 118 Pz 35t, 31 Pz IV, 14 Cmd Tk
Pz Div 8 - 58 Pz II, 116 Pz 38t, 23 Pz IV, 15 Cmd Tk

Attacking Dinant (4 bn in 5th Pz, 3 bn in 7th Pz)
Pz Div 5 - 97 Pz I, 120 Pz II, 52 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 26 Cmd Tk
Pz Div 7 - 34 Pz I, 68 Pz II, 98 Pz 38t, 24 Pz IV, 8 Cmd Tk

Attacking Hannut (4 bn in two reg't per div)
Pz Div 3 - 117 Pz I, 129 Pz II, 42 Pz III, 26 Pz IV, 27 Cmd Tk
Pz Div 4 - 135 Pz I, 105 Pz II, 40 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 10 Cmd Tk

Attacking into Holland (2 bn in div)
Pz Div 9 - 30 Pz I, 54 Pz II, 41 Pz III, 16 Pz IV, 12 Cmd Tk

The strength of the panzer divisions was based on the perceived difficulty of the mission. Guderian's attack at Sedan was considered the most critical so this corps had the strongest division with the most Pz III and Pz IV per division. The strength dropped with each corps as the attacks moved north through Montherme, Dinant and the Gembloux Gap.

If you can find it, Critical Hit did a module (with overlay) based on the fighting between the 3rd and 4th Pz Divs and the 2nd and 3rd DLM's of Prioux's Cavalry Corps in the Gembloux Gap. The main (biggest) battle involves about 20 Pz II plus other assorted tanks against H-35s and S-35s.
 

Carln0130

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The Dinant CG gives you plenty of chances to get your MkII fix on. My 1's, not so much.
 

macrobo

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Hi Mr Purist

I do have Gembloux Gap and yes with the campaign (no monster scenario) you could could purchase 13 PzIIs but that would stop you having something else you would have to go without - It is historical in that after you buy the 5 PzIIIs and the 6 PzIVs - there are not many points left with all those tanks but that is what I would do - As a note don't do the AT gun stuff or MTR - cheaper but not much against French Tanks

and MR Carlin is right with Dinant CG - you are allowed 5 with a light tank company and 6 with a medium so in theory in any one battle 11 PZIIFs

but thanks again Gents

Cheers

Rob :)
 

macrobo

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Hi All

The Battle of Hannut on Wikipedia was a cool read and I hope one day our ASL designers will do a historical study - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hannut

In detail - looks like it would fit the bill based on the order of battle they describe!!

The exact numbers of each type on 10 May available to the German armoured divisions are known: 3rd Pz. Div. had 314 battle tanks in its 3. Panzer-Brigade consisting of 5. and 6. Panzer-Regiment: 117 PzKpfw Is, 129 PzKpfw IIs, 42 PzKpfw IIIs and 26 PzKpfw IVs; 4th Pz. Div. had 304 battle tanks in its 5. Panzer-Brigade consisting of 35. and 36. Panzerregiment: 135 PzKpfw Is, 105 PzKpfw IIs, 40 PzKpfw IIIs and 24 PzKpfw IVs.

So the terrain is done well in a new compute game - https://www.vgr.com/history-battlefield-5-panzerstorm-hannut/

And the breakdown at squadron level of the battle tank by tank -

all the material for the next historical study!!! - I may get my charge of a dozen Panzer IIs yet!

Any Takers???? :eek:

cheers

Rob
 
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phlegm027

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The research we found on Dinant showed the 38(t) As the main tank in the10th Pz Div.
but you can find theminthe CG
 

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Hi All

The Battle of Hannut on Wikipedia was a cool read and I hope one day our ASL designers will do a historical study - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hannut

In detail - looks like it would fit the bill based on the order of battle they describe!!

The exact numbers of each type on 10 May available to the German armoured divisions are known: 3rd Pz. Div. had 314 battle tanks in its 3. Panzer-Brigade consisting of 5. and 6. Panzer-Regiment: 117 PzKpfw Is, 129 PzKpfw IIs, 42 PzKpfw IIIs and 26 PzKpfw IVs; 4th Pz. Div. had 304 battle tanks in its 5. Panzer-Brigade consisting of 35. and 36. Panzerregiment: 135 PzKpfw Is, 105 PzKpfw IIs, 40 PzKpfw IIIs and 24 PzKpfw IVs.

So the terrain is done well in a new compute game - https://www.vgr.com/history-battlefield-5-panzerstorm-hannut/

And the breakdown at squadron level of the battle tank by tank -

all the material for the next historical study!!! - I may get my charge of a dozen Panzer IIs yet!

Any Takers???? :eek:

cheers

Rob
Rob

I share your interest in this epic clash of French and German armor (scenario attached). There are a couple of challenges to note though. First, Panzer IIs really suck. As mentioned in the video you linked, and numerous other sources, their fire just bounced off of French armor. Ergo, the Germans brought up 88s. So a scenario centered on a Panzer II swarm would be an exercise in frustration for the Germans as it was in real life. A few Panzer IIs, balanced by IIIs, is manageable; otherwise its makes sense for the IIs to just flee and let the 88s go to work - which is probably what actually happened. In play testing the attached and other scenarios that feature IIs against French armor (Tactiques has some good ones, TAC 31-33), I find the IIs serve best as smoke makers for the IIIs, or infantry chasers. The other challenge is that the Battle of the Belgian plain (May 10 -14, 1940) was spread out over a great distance in ASL terms. There were numerous armor clashes, but almost always 1,000s of yards apart. For example, the clash depicted in the attached scenario would actually require 10 ASL map boards (2 km square) to depict accurately, I "fudged" with just three. The point there is you can't get much mileage out of the same map as you can in Red Barricades or A Bridge Too Far. Still, a "historical study" along the lines of MMP's Guadacanal product would be possible.
 

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macrobo

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Hi John

your a fantastic chap to share that scenario with us - yep ping ping ping!!! would be the theme of a PZII clash alone

Cheers

Rob 🤩
 

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DYO or modify Hill 621 as May 1940 Germans attacking British with Matildas. Should work. Actually sounds interesting and would make a nice compare and contrast AAR.
 
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