When you play, how often do you use the IIFT?

How many of your games use the IIFT?

  • None - Almost never use it.

    Votes: 105 41.2%
  • 0-10%

    Votes: 31 12.2%
  • 11-20%

    Votes: 5 2.0%
  • 21-30%

    Votes: 5 2.0%
  • 31-40%

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 41-50%

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • 51-60%

    Votes: 4 1.6%
  • 61-70%

    Votes: 7 2.7%
  • 71-80%

    Votes: 13 5.1%
  • 81-90%

    Votes: 16 6.3%
  • 91-100%

    Votes: 63 24.7%

  • Total voters
    255

Stacks

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Now, if I show to any neutral person that a 3FP has to fire on the 2FP column and a 7FP unit has to fire on the 6FP column on one table while on another table it can fire on it the exact FP column, and then ask them whether the first one undervalues or the next one overvalues, I'm pretty sure about 90-95% (one freak IFTer might slip in) will say the first.
You´re seems to miss the design intent of the numbers of these game, if you showed the CRT of ASL that
had a FPcolumn that looked like 12-15+ any wargamer of other games (neutral person, as you suggested) would hardly
blink an eye since this is common practice of design.

AVALON HILL could have made the IFT to have this apperance.

1+_2-3+_4-5+_6-7+_8-11+_12-15+_16-19+_20-23+_24-29+_30-35+_36+

Popular games being played always have these combined
"fire combat values" on their Combat Result Tables (CRT).

Greenwood choosed instead to write a rule that reads:

A7.3 The attacker uses the rightmost column of the IFT whose listed FP (in bold type) does not exceed the total adjusted FP of the attack. Any excess FP factors have no effect.

And to make one that looks more pleasing.

1_2_4_6_8_12_16_20_24_30_36+
 

Stacks

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J. Kaufman sent his fourth-generation IIFT in 1987 to Avalon Hill in hopes that it would be seen as a "germ of something great" , the IIFT sent covered two type written pages with 72 FPc.

- Written by J.Kaufman : I wanted to recreate my experience using Incremental CRTs in other game systems"
The designers of ASL didn´t approve of this "improvement".
 

Tater

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You´re seems to miss the design intent of the numbers of these game...
And you continue to miss the design intent of the IIFT. Which is fine since you never, EVER have to use it.

The design intent is to make the game more fun for those whoi like the IIFT.

The real insanity here is that you honestly believe you can convince IIFT users to stop using the IIFT.
 

MLaPanzer

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And you continue to miss the design intent of the IIFT. Which is fine since you never, EVER have to use it.

The design intent is to make the game more fun for those whoi like the IIFT.

The real insanity here is that you honestly believe you can convince IIFT users to stop using the IIFT.
Hey Tater makes some sense.

IIFTers are like Meth heads. You can't get them to stop till they want to stop themselves.:laugh:

I quit the addiction of the IIFT you can to.
 

Tater

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Hey Tater makes some sense.
To those without a ceberal deficit...I always make sense. :devious:

IIFTers are like Meth heads. You can't get them to stop till they want to stop themselves.:laugh:

I quit the addiction of the IIFT you can to.
Come now, let's be honest...this statement would apply to the whole concept of being an "ASL Player"...not just the IIFT users. :cool:
 

Sparafucil3

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To those without a ceberal deficit...I always make sense. :devious:
A deficit in understanding obfuscation and avoidance maybe. Understanding basic mathematics and statistics makes that "deficit" hard to step into as well ;) -- jim
 

Tater

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A deficit in understanding obfuscation and avoidance maybe. Understanding basic mathematics and statistics makes that "deficit" hard to step into as well ;)
Basic "mathematics and statistics" has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why ift'ers campaign against the IIFT...that is the BIG LIE.
 

Sparafucil3

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Basic "mathematics and statistics" has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why ift'ers campaign against the IIFT...that is the BIG LIE.
Really? Please, tell me why it is then that "we" "campaign" against the IIFT. Please, tell me you are once again going to claim to speak for a whole class of people Mark.....er, I mean Tate. -- jim
 

Tater

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Really? Please, tell me why it is then that "we" "campaign" against the IIFT.
It is emotional...not factual.

Please, tell me you are once again going to claim to speak for a whole class of people Mark.....er, I mean Tate.
When you can't beat the argument...then make the argument about the person...right...:nuts:
 

Tater

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Ya either play the game the way it was meant ta be played, or not.
I do...which is why I prefer the IIFT...the only table designed specifically for ASL. Some folks continue to use that old patch-work table from SL.

So ya are either an ASLer or a garage..err..a Tater...

:D
Double car type thank you very much! :D
 

Sparafucil3

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It is emotional...not factual.
It's only emotional when you can't or won't accept the math.

When you can't beat the argument...then make the argument about the person...right...:nuts:
Right, because labeling those who point out the short-comings of the IIFT as telling the "BIG LIE" and positing they have a "ceberal deficit" is all about arguing the facts. -- jim
 

Stacks

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But not against intellectual dishonesty I see...

IIFT is not a house rule.
SOP statement for when someone wants to make a baseless and unproved accusation.

BTW, it is actually provable...you just don't want to do the work because then you wouldn't be able to make "educated guesses". :nuts:
If it comes down to a kinife edge with the ift...it will also with the IIFT.
Then don't use it...:nuts:
Actually it is both...just like battlefield integrity.
Wrong...actually the IIFT is the result of players being disastisfied with the gamey tactics required to utilize the ift properly. IOW, it was the broken nature of the ift that lead to the IIFT.
Finally decided to capitulate...can't win the argument so let's make it about me now.
The math you use is unrelated to the question...



Actually the players I was speaking of have made themselves heard here and in other ift vs IIFT threads. I was only repeating what they have said. If you had been paying attention you would know this. But then it wouldn't allow you to try and change the topic from ift vs IIFT to me.
The math is not relevant since it is cherry picked and non-contextual. It does not, nor will it ever prove that the IIFT would change the balance of any given scenario.

In fact you math could just as easily be used as evidence that the IIFT actually makes scenarios more balanced.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:...

How would you know...you use the ift which encourages players to stack maneuver for firepower.
Which is totally antithetical to how the ift has to be used.
Well, since it was you lot that started this...you first.



You seals don't fry...you eat it raw...fish that is...have another. :laugh:
It only appears that way to someone who has one leg shorter than the other...like ift users for example. :laugh:
And you continue to miss the design intent of the IIFT. Which is fine since you never, EVER have to use it.

The design intent is to make the game more fun for those whoi like the IIFT.

The real insanity here is that you honestly believe you can convince IIFT users to stop using the IIFT.
To those without a ceberal deficit...I always make sense. :devious:



Come now, let's be honest...this statement would apply to the whole concept of being an "ASL Player"...not just the IIFT users. :cool:
Basic "mathematics and statistics" has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why ift'ers campaign against the IIFT...that is the BIG LIE.
It is emotional...not factual.



When you can't beat the argument...then make the argument about the person...right...:nuts:
I do...which is why I prefer the IIFT...the only table designed specifically for ASL. Some folks continue to use that old patch-work table from SL.



Double car type thank you very much! :D
So many lies and halftruths in so few words...on the last 30 pages only.
 

pward

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It is emotional...not factual.

When you can't beat the argument...then make the argument about the person...right...:nuts:
Totally factual, except you don't want to acknowledge the facts.

Turning it on the person is one of your favorite tactics Tater. In fact you've done it yourself already when you're saying that an emotional argument (which I'm not using) is somehow less worthy than a factual one.
 

Tater

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Totally factual, except you don't want to acknowledge the facts.
I acknowledge them...I just don't think they mean what you think they do relative to actual ASL play. The difference between you and I is that you seem to believe that ASL is a game of mathematics. I, OTOH, KNOW that ASL is much more than the sum of the mathematics.

Otherwise why even play a scenario...just add up the FP, calculate turns vs movement capability, run a couple of formulas, spit out the statistical analysis and viola...side "B" has a 61.9% chance of winning so no need to play. :nuts:

Turning it on the person is one of your favorite tactics Tater. In fact you've done it yourself already when you're saying that an emotional argument (which I'm not using) is somehow less worthy than a factual one.
Sure, but aren't you all better than that? At least that is what you seem to think, right? As you accuse one another of "arguing like Tater". :laugh:
 

Tater

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It's only emotional when you can't or won't accept the math.
Keep on pickin them cherrys boy...

Right, because labeling those who point out the short-comings of the IIFT as telling the "BIG LIE" and positing they have a "ceberal deficit" is all about arguing the facts.
Oh puhlease, the whole basis of the ift vs IIFT debate is specifically directed as an insult to anyone who enjoys playing ASL with the IIFT. It has no other purpose. So if you are participating on the ift side then you got no grounds to pi$$ and moan on. What? next thing you gonna say is that you are gonna tell your mommy on me!
 

Sparafucil3

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Keep on pickin them cherrys boy...
You call them cherries because you can't refute them and you know the facts are against you. You're possible avenue of approach them is to belittle them or avoid them, both of which you attempt to exercise.

Oh puhlease, the whole basis of the ift vs IIFT debate is specifically directed as an insult to anyone who enjoys playing ASL with the IIFT. It has no other purpose. So if you are participating on the ift side then you got no grounds to pi$$ and moan on. What? next thing you gonna say is that you are gonna tell your mommy on me!
Wrong, or are you once again arguing on the basis that you now speak for a whole class of people. The whole basis of my argument is the math of the IFT is changed and that's why I don't play it. If you take that as insulting, that's not my fault. I don't have a problem with the name calling, I just enjoy seeing you cry "make the argument about me" when you have been "making the argument about us" all along. You have devolved into a position where all you can do is ignore facts that stand against you, call names, claim to speak for vast segments of ASL'dom, and tell us "but it feel's better". If you enjoy playing ASL with the IIFT, good for you. But if you want to tell us its just them same/no different/doesn't affect balance/etc, you're going to have to bring more to the table than you have so far. -- jim
 
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