When Marsh becomes Swamp question

[Sean Deller]

PTO Terrain is in effect.

Q. When a Marsh hex is adjacent to Bamboo (treated as "dense jungle" per G3.1) but not a Jungle hex, does it become Swamp?

We're about to play J189 Buckley's Block and we're not sure how to handle hex 37G6.

 

[von Marwitz]

"G7.1 Whenever PTO Terrain (G.1) is in effect, each marsh hex that is adjacent to ≥ one jungle hex becomes a swamp hex. Swamp is treated as "non-flooded" (B16.6) marsh except as stated otherwise. The effects of a swamp Location are not altered by the water depth of a stream/river. Swamp is never considered to be a Hindrance or Open Ground, or river or mudflat terrain."

This means that 37G6 remains Marsh, because is is not adjacent to jungle. 37H5 is Marsh for the same reason, while 37H6 is Swamp for being adjacent to the jungle in 37I7.

Note, that VASL reflects this as the shades of 37H5 and 37G6 have a slightly different coloring than 37H6. You can review a map of this scenario at the ASL Scenario Archive website. I just played that one last week.

von Marwitz

 

[Brian W]

This means that 37G6 remains Marsh, because is is not adjacent to jungle.

I think that Bamboo is treated as Dense Jungle per G3.1 and Marsh becomes Swamp.

 

[von Marwitz]

I think that Bamboo is treated as Dense Jungle per G3.1 and Marsh becomes Swamp.

I don't agree.

Bamboo is to be treated as Dense Jungle per G3.1 for a number of purposes.
Nevertheless, it is and remains a Bamboo hex and not a (Dense) Jungle hex - and G7.1 calls for a Jungle hex and not for a Bamboo hex treated as Jungle in some respects.

Therefore I still believe that the hexes in question remain Marsh.
But let's see what the gurus say on this.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

I tend to read it as bamboo being Dense Jungle for all purposes (except as otherwise written), i.e. it is a bamboo hex and a dense jungle hex. I don't know how you would decide which purposes it would be and which it would not be otherwise. I think we have had some conflicting rulings in the past about similar cases so I am not willing to commit absolutely, but that's how I would read it.

JR

 

[Sean Deller]

The question boils down to whether "being treated as" is the equivalent of "is." I can see it going either way, but my guess at the original intent is no (i.e., not equivalent) and that a Bamboo hex does not transform Marsh into Swamp.

I am surprised I could not find a previous clarification on this. I'll submit a Q&A.

 

[Sean Deller]

Note, that VASL reflects this as the shades of 37H5 and 37G6 have a slightly different coloring than 37H6.

I did not know VASL did that. Thanks for mentioning this.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Bamboo is treated as Heavy Jungle.
But it does not become Heavy Jungle.
There is a nuance between those notions.

 

[jrv]

Bamboo is treated as Heavy Jungle.
But it does not become Heavy Jungle.
There is a nuance between those notions.

The stacking limit of Dense Jungle is two squads. What is the stacking limit of bamboo?
Marsh hexes adjacent to Dense Jungle are swamp instead. What are marsh hexes adjacent to bamboo?

How do I apply your nuance to determine which case "being treated as" is sufficient and which case "being treated as" is not sufficient? In the presence of this "nuance" I think stacking limit of bamboo is three squads because per G2.2 the stacking limit is reduced to two for "dense-jungle hexes that do not contain a road/building", and as been asserted by existence of nuance, a bamboo hex is not a dense-jungle hex.

JR

 

[Brian W]

I"m surprised that there is contention about this. The rule seems clear to me, and it is how I have always played it or seen it played. Or maybe it just never came into play.

 

[Mr Incredible]

One man's nuance is another man's nuisance.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The stacking limit of Dense Jungle is two squads. What is the stacking limit of bamboo?
Marsh hexes adjacent to Dense Jungle are swamp instead. What are marsh hexes adjacent to bamboo?

How do I apply your nuance to determine which case "being treated as" is sufficient and which case "being treated as" is not sufficient? In the presence of this "nuance" I think stacking limit of bamboo is three squads because per G2.2 the stacking limit is reduced to two for "dense-jungle hexes that do not contain a road/building", and as been asserted by existence of nuance, a bamboo hex is not a dense-jungle hex.

JR

You may be right.
Strangely, you don't stress the "except as stated otherwise" sentence, so you opinion comes out as a total identification of Bamboo with Jungle.
Where I may have introduced too much nuance, you evoke none at all.

Now, we are not speaking of Bamboo, but of Marsh adjacent to Jungle.
So you will find nothing in the Bamboo or Jungle rules about their "power of transformation" of Marsh into Swamp.
But the Swamp rules specify adjacent Jungle as making Marsh become Swamp.
It is not about the Jungle having a capacity - and so the similarity of Bamboo does not necessarily apply here - but about Marsh being adjacent to Jungle.

Again, I may be wrong - and it won't be the first time that I have been playing things wrong - but I still perceive a logical shift in your application of the rules, from the definition of what makes a marsh be Swamp to the characteristics of Jungle terrain in istelf (to which Bamboo is compared).

 

[Sean Deller]

Q&A submitted to MMP.

 

[Brian W]

Where I may have introduced too much nuance, you evoke none at all.

But there shouldn't be any unwritten nuance to rules, at least not intentionally.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The problem is that JR equates Bamboo with Jungle in a radical way.
I draw your attention to the fact that those terrains are adressed in different paragraphs and are named differently.
They are not interchangeable in all cases.
And the Swamp rules only evoke Jungle. Not terrains treated as Jungle.
Again, I may be wrong. Perhaps even probably if you want.
I am looking forward to seeing Perry's answer.
And I will adapt if needed.

 

[BattleSchool]

The problem is that JR equates Bamboo with Jungle in a radical way.
I draw your attention to the fact that those terrains are adressed in different paragraphs and are named differently.
They are not interchangeable in all cases.
And the Swamp rules only evoke Jungle. Not terrains treated as Jungle.

I see your point. Bamboo would have to be a subset of Dense Jungle, akin to an Olive Grove being a subset of orchard. It isn't, because bamboo is a distinct terrain type, not simply a different kind of jungle.

G2.1 tells us that when PTO terrain is in effect all woods become jungle, and that the "term 'jungle' by itself refers collectively to both types," namely light and dense. There is no mention of bamboo at this point, only that jungle is treated as woods except as stated otherwise. (Bamboo appears later in G2.22 and G2.7.) But let's play this out.

When PTO Terrain is in effect, all brush becomes bamboo, and all woods become jungle. Light and dense jungle are collectively referred to as "jungle." Given that bamboo is treated as dense jungle except as stated otherwise, is it correct to conclude that bamboo becomes jungle for the purposes of G7.1?

More generally, G.2-.6 specifically mention bamboo, when "jungle" would have done triple duty for jungle, dense jungle, and bamboo, if all three were "jungle."

IMO, a bamboo hex is not a "jungle hex" for the purposes of G7.1. This is borne out by the "definition" of an Interior dense-jungle hex, which is fundamentally a woods hex (not a woods/brush hex). (Compare with G3.21.)

G2.22 STRAYING: In a daytime scenario, a non-subterranean Infantry unit/stack that in its MPh is in an Interior dense-jungle hex (i.e., a woods hex adjacent to six other woods/brush/marsh hexes)...

G3.21 STRAYING: Straying can occur in an Interior bamboo hex (i.e., a brush hex adjacent to six other woods/brush/marsh hexes) as per 2.22.

------------------------
Good question (G7.1), as it never occurred to me when I played this scenario a couple months ago. (Cropping excepted, I think board 37 may be the only board where this question will arise.)

 

[Philippe D.]

My reading of the "unless stated otherwise" would be that exceptions would need to be explicit: either in the G3 rules section (the one describing Bamboo), or, in other rules sections, those mentioning something like "Dense Jungle (not Bamboo)".

 

[Robin Reeve]

My point is that Swamp definition is not about a property of Jungle, but about being adjacent to Jungle - Jungle is not conferring to Marsh the status of Swamp.
Bamboo shares some properties of Jungle, but isn't Jungle.
Battleschool's quotation of G2.1, which defines what the term "jungle" designates (i.e. only Light and Heavy Jungle) seems to follow that line of logics - as well a his examples of differentiation between jungle and bamboo in many of the introductory rules of chapter G.

 

[BattleSchool]

My reading of the "unless stated otherwise" would be that exceptions would need to be explicit: either in the G3 rules section (the one describing Bamboo), or, in other rules sections, those mentioning something like "Dense Jungle (not Bamboo)".

I think it's fair to say that the entirety of G3. is an exception to being treated as Dense Jungle.

The salient point, however, is that a bamboo hex is not a jungle hex. As I pointed out above, G2.22 equates a dense-jungle hex with a woods hex, not a woods or bamboo hex.

Where in G3.1 does it say that a bamboo hex is treated the same as a dense-jungle hex?

Have another look at G7.1. It states that "each marsh hex that is adjacent to ≥ one jungle hex becomes a swamp hex."

 

[Brian W]

IMO, a bamboo hex is not a "jungle hex" for the purposes of G7.1. This is borne out by the "definition" of an Interior dense-jungle hex, which is fundamentally a woods hex (not a woods/brush hex). (Compare with G3.21.)

The response has to be that bamboo is treated as dense jungle except where indicated otherwise. Finding a place in the ASLRB where it is treated differently is covered under the statement "except where indicated otherwise."

Maybe swamp determination should be an exception to the generalization, but that would be a hole in the rules needing an erratum.