When does the early war period end for the SS 4-6-8?

[Paul M. Weir]

Kit and motivation/spirit are only part of the issue. Training/skill with the kit and experience under fire count for a lot as well.

I'm not sure motivation and spirit (aggressive or otherwise) can really be disentangled. Unit spirit I see as a mix of individual motivation and learnt doctrine, reinforced by discipline and positive leadership example.

This whole thread got me thinking about how to represent the Kaminski trash (ugh, shudder!). Something like a 50/50 mix of 548 and 447 that always massacre, always lax and an ERL of 1. I might suggest that every originally enemy controlled building hex costs them 3 MF due to looting, a problem that first was noted as a battlefield problem in the Battle of Kadesh (1274 BCE) where the Hittite troops stopped to loot Ramses II's camp, allowing Ramses to salvage something from that disaster.

 

[Robin Reeve]

There is even an older report about the problem of plunder on the battlefield.
The Egyptians at Meggiddo (1457 B.C.), the oldest detailed reported battle in History, lost time looting, which allowed the Canaanites to take refuge in Megiddo.
The siege then lasted seven months.

The Egyptian soldiers fell to plundering the enemy camp. During the plunder they captured 924 chariots and 200 suits of armor. Unfortunately for the Egyptians, during this confusion, the scattered Caananite forces, including the kings of Kadesh and Megiddo, were able to rejoin the defenders inside the city. Those inside lowered tied-together clothing to the men and chariots and pulled them up over the walls. Thus, the opportunity of a quick capture of the city following the battle was lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Megiddo_(15th_century_BC)

 

[Proff3RTR]

A uni

Kit and motivation/spirit are only part of the issue. Training/skill with the kit and experience under fire count for a lot as well.

I'm not sure motivation and spirit (aggressive or otherwise) can really be disentangled. Unit spirit I see as a mix of individual motivation and learnt doctrine, reinforced by discipline and positive leadership example.

This whole thread got me thinking about how to represent the Kaminski trash (ugh, shudder!). Something like a 50/50 mix of 548 and 447 that always massacre, always lax and an ERL of 1. I might suggest that every originally enemy controlled building hex costs them 3 MF due to looting, a problem that first was noted as a battlefield problem in the Battle of Kadesh (1274 BCE) where the Hittite troops stopped to loot Ramses II's camp, allowing Ramses to salvage something from that disaster.

A unit can be motivated, but still lack that 'killer edge' that is needed to make it a truly dangerous opponent, that comes or is learned through a combination of good NCO's & officers & combat experience. The 3 premier SS Divisions are the most obvious example, at the start they were not all that good, enthusiastic, yes,but not overly effective. They reached their zenith mid 43 and then slowly burnt out as it were.

Kaminski brigade is a classic, scum yes, motivated most certainly as they were sure they would not face proper line troops, but when the chips were down they lacked spirit or fighting edge and so performed as expected, pretty poorly.

Also you need to look at what is happening to the unit, is it advancing, is it defending, is it a rear guard, all this things have an effect on a unit's ability to stay in the fight as an effective unit, the good ones adjust, suck it up and adapt to what ever is coming at them, the bad ones break and run or surrender.

 

[Barking Monkey]

Kit and motivation/spirit are only part of the issue. Training/skill with the kit and experience under fire count for a lot as well.

I'm not sure motivation and spirit (aggressive or otherwise) can really be disentangled. Unit spirit I see as a mix of individual motivation and learnt doctrine, reinforced by discipline and positive leadership example.

This whole thread got me thinking about how to represent the Kaminski trash (ugh, shudder!). Something like a 50/50 mix of 548 and 447 that always massacre, always lax and an ERL of 1. I might suggest that every originally enemy controlled building hex costs them 3 MF due to looting, a problem that first was noted as a battlefield problem in the Battle of Kadesh (1274 BCE) where the Hittite troops stopped to loot Ramses II's camp, allowing Ramses to salvage something from that disaster.

So how much useful looting can you get in with only 1 extra MF? This suggests they were either really efficient or really casual about their looting. I bet you'd have to spend a whole turn to turn over every cot and peek inside all the crockery. And what's that Otto over there is trying to sneak into his rucksack?! He'd better plan on sharing that bottle!!

There's an interesting game to be made based on battlefield looting, I think.

 

[tommyl]

Looting: Genesis 48 from CH had an interesting looting rule for ALA, AAS and Moslem Brotherhood units. Basically if they took a building location previously held by the Israelis they had to take a NTC. Failure made them TI until they could pass another NTC in a subsequent rally phase. Units stacked with leaders were exempt.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

One of the orthonormal with the user of 6-5-8 s is the undermined morale so they are a very blunt instrument to recreate units. Of course you can ssr replacements but that needs an extra layer of rules. This is a good reason to use 5-4-8s who ashtray have a defined elr path.

I do find orthonormal ashtrays to be the subject of much amousement!

(Orthonormal refers to a mathematical set (Matrix) that is both orthogonal and normalized)
In a military sense I guess we might use it when different units of a formation were of exactly the same size
but had very distinct and non overlapping functions.
So a platoon of tank destroyers with no HE might be considered largely orthonormal to a platoon of SIG 33's with no AP.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

So how much useful looting can you get in with only 1 extra MF? This suggests they were either really efficient or really casual about their looting. I bet you'd have to spend a whole turn to turn over every cot and peek inside all the crockery. And what's that Otto over there is trying to sneak into his rucksack?! He'd better plan on sharing that bottle!!

There's an interesting game to be made based on battlefield looting, I think.

The Kaminski mob had plenty of practice. Besides, I suspect that on entering most locations there would obviously be little of interest, just suggesting an extra MF on average for each building location.

tommyl proposed an interesting alternative. One could suggest a standard TC for a stone building with a -1 DRM TC for a wooden building as the wooden building is either a poorer household or an outbuilding.

 

[Robin Reeve]

One could simply not consider the Kaminski guys as not being SS from the perspective of ASL, rather than try to adapt the SS squads, as the latter clearly try to depict the elite of the Waffen-SS.

 

[sebosebi]

And why not a 658 not SS for the PG of the elite Heer units? I bet that a significative number of squads from GD, Lehr, PzD 2, HG... in 1944 could be represented in that way

 

[Brian W]

And why not a 658 not SS for the PG of the elite Heer units? I bet that a significative number of squads from GD, Lehr, PzD 2, HG... in 1944 could be represented in that way

For the same reason many elite US units in 1944-45 aren't 668s, despite the fact that many could be represented that way.

 

[Robin Reeve]

And why not a 658 not SS for the PG of the elite Heer units? I bet that a significative number of squads from GD, Lehr, PzD 2, HG... in 1944 could be represented in that way

Wehrmacht elite units could indeed be represented in a similar way as the best Waffen-SS.
But the system has taken the road of not considering the Waffen-SS as simply part of the German elite units, even from a military perspective - quite like the exagerated national traits.
But designers could SSR adaptations which take some liberties from the usual way of applying the rules.

 

[Danno]

And why not a 658 not SS for the PG of the elite Heer units? I bet that a significative number of squads from GD, Lehr, PzD 2, HG... in 1944 could be represented in that way

The Heer went to 8 man squads in 44-45 while the SS stayed at 10 man squads. Thus the 8 man elite squad being 5-4-8 while the SS squad is 6-5-8.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The Heer went to 8 man squads in 44-45 while the SS stayed at 10 man squads. Thus the 8 man elite squad being 5-4-8 while the SS squad is 6-5-8.

That is theoretical.
After a number of days of combat, or even from the start, the TO&E are obsolete.
The values of a squad are not only linked to the number of men or to the weapons used, but also to the experience and efficiency of the combatants.
Russian squads were 15 men at times, but have 4FP, quite like the German 10 or 9 men squads.
A designer will be able to use the variety of possibilities of the ASL counters to render at best the effect of the situation he tries to depict,

 

[Proff3RTR]

That theoretical.
After a number of days of commbat, or even from the start, the TO&E are obsolete.
The values of a squad are not only linked to the number of men or to tge weaoons used, but also to the experience and efficiency of the combatants.
Russian squads were 15 men at times, but have 4FP, quite like the German 10 or 9 men squads.
A designer will be able to use the variety of possibilities of the ASL counters to render at best the effect of the situation he tries to depict,

Robin points out a very valid point, TOE's or OB's are all good and well, but are never meet, even in peace time, due to sickness/ AFV breakdowns etc, chuck into that combat losses and such and in effect you can represent a unit in many ways.

I am on the 9th of July AM set of CG Dates for my self made 2nd SS Panzer Korps Campaign for Kursk, here is an average PzGr ko belonging to LSSAH, the Kompanie has taken part in several fights over the past 4 days and is showing the signs of wear.

Kompanie Hq ZUG:
1 x 9-2
1 x 6-5-8 MMC
1 x lmg

1st Zug:
1 x 8-1
1 x 6-5-8 MMC
1 x 5-4-8 MMC
2 x lmg

2nd Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 7-0
1 x 6-5-8 MMC
2 x 5-4-8 MMC
2 x lmg
1 x ATR

3rd Zug:
1 x 8-1
1 x 7-0
2 x 6-5-8 MMC
2 x lmg
1 x ATR

Weapons Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 8-1
2 x 6-5-8 MMC
6 x 3-4-8 HS
1 x lmg
2 x HMG
2 x 81mm MTR

Now compare this with the start strength for the Kompanie as of 00:01 hrs 5/7/43
Kompanie Hq ZUG:
1 x 9-2
1 x 8-1
2 x 6-5-8 MMC
1 x 3-4-8 HS
1 x lmg

1st Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 8-1
4 x 6-5-8 MMC
2 x lmg
1 x ATR

2nd Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 8-1
4 x 6-5-8 MMC
2 x lmg
1 x ATR

3rd Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 8-1
4 x 6-5-8 MMC
2 x lmg
1 x ATR

Weapons Zug:
1 x 9-1
1 x 8-1
2 x 6-5-8 MMC
6 x 3-4-8 HS
1 x lmg
2 x HMG
2 x 81mm MTR

As can be seen the kompanie has suffered a few losses, and needs to be pulled out the line, the weps ZUG is pretty much untouched but that is how it played out, this is an average kompanie, some have 4-4-7 representing units that have been hammered and are fatigued etc, also i use 4-4-7 SS MMC to represent the echelon units etc.

 

[RandyT0001]

Mr. Weir,
I created a chart which provides the primary unit for force composition of the various SS divisions based upon your assessment of SS divisions. It is a pdf file. This will provide the group a visual reference as the force composition of particular division is discussed. Once the primary unit is decided we can determine the secondary unit for each division as applicable and at what percentage of composition.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Mr. Weir,
I created a chart which provides the primary unit for force composition of the various SS divisions based upon your assessment of SS divisions. It is a pdf file. This will provide the group a visual reference as the force composition of particular division is discussed. Once the primary unit is decided we can determine the secondary unit for each division as applicable and at what percentage of composition.

A bit ironic how the SS were meant to be the "pure" blooded troops and most of the divisions were in fact nothing of the sort.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Design the scenario the way you like, you can go new school and have the SS as 447 or 436 squad tyoes or go old school and use the 658's. What would get played? a scenario with 658 squads or a scenario with a gaggle of 447's or 436 squads? I want scenarios to be fun and interesting minus the micro managing, wonky SSR's or VC's or what ever other wackiness that seems to permeate scenario designs currently.

Scott

 

[Robin Reeve]

I agree with Scott: fun is the major factor which guides my choice of scenarios.
Labyrinthic VC or exceedingly long SSR can be fun killers for me.
I am OK for some chrome, but it must have the elegance and purity of a luxury car, rather than look like the delirium of a tormented mind.

 

[GeorgeBates]

A bit ironic how the SS were meant to be the "pure" blooded troops and most of the divisions were in fact nothing of the sort.

Large numbers of pissed-off Russians can make anyone compromise on principles.

 

[Pitman]

Thank you for the responses. That was a nice discussion.

Does it matter, in a practical sense? Your scenarios will usually be in 1944-45 regardless.