Evan Sherry
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When does the early war period end for the SS 4-6-8?
When does the early war period end for the SS 4-6-8?
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Evan Sherry
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Do you include 1943 as part of the early war period?
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July 2, 1943, 6 A.M., one in three Waffen-SS soldiers suddently saw his rifle magically transform into a brand new Sturmgewehr (or an additional LMG spawned in the midst each squad).
Quite like every American Bazooka team saw WP appear in their ammo bags on January 1st and found that they now could fire up to 200 meters rather than 160.
Quite like every American Bazooka team saw WP appear in their ammo bags on January 1st and found that they now could fire up to 200 meters rather than 160.
The simple answer is it doesn't.
The SS kept raising divisions right to the end. With a few exceptions most of those were from mediocre to abysmal. Everything from Volksdeutsche (Germans living outside Germany) to Bosnians to the Kaminski Brigade. The later types were only capable of fighting unarmed civilians and the occasional partisan, real scum of the earth.
The premier SS divisions (1-3,5 and later 9-12) would have started as 468, graduating to 548 sometime in '42 and 658 by mid '43. Some others like 16 & 17, formed '43 would be best represented by mainly 548.
I take the different types to represent both armament and combat skill. While the premier divisions got upgraded at the squad level other units remained equipped at early war standard level for the most part. Some of the upgrading would have been unofficial, battlefield pick-ups and temporary merging of battalions/companies/platoons due to personnel losses and the resultant concentration of LMG, SMG, etc but there were also official reorganisations. Eg, 1st LSSAH started as a motorised infantry regiment, then a motorised division after Yugoslavia and in '42 was withdrawn to become a Panzergrenadier division, though in practice that ended up being a conversion to an over strength Panzer Division with 2 rather than 1 Panzer Abteilung (battalion). The original allocation of LMG was 1 per squad and went to 2 in '42.
All German divisions were supposed to be beefed up at the squad level, usually a 2nd LMG from '43 onwards and more SMG, semi-automatic rifles and finally StG 44 from mid-late '44 (most noticeably in the Volksgrenadier conversions). while the premier SS often got their upgrades earlier and more completely, the trash were later than many Heer units and simply did not have the skill to take full advantage.
436 or BFP's new 437 from PiF.
A chunk of the higher numbered trash all war and 6th Nord in '41. Not entirely, but a reasonable chunk of a scenario OoB.
447
A good part of 4th and 6th until late '43 or early '44. Early 7th & 8th. The majority type for the higher trash.
468
All premier until '42. Some in 2nd line (4th, 6th before '43, ditto 7th & 8th). The becoming the majority of 4th, 6th-8th in '43. The better elements of the higher numbered trash as they often started building with decent cadres.
548
Premier '42 until early '43. Increasing numbers in the 2nd line from mid '43, some in the trash. 16th & 17th the majority.
658
Premier from Kursk onwards. Good numbers in 2nd line and especially 16th and 17th from mid '44.. Small number in the rest.
I mentioned 6th Nord. It's early performance in '41 was quite abysmal, so majority 447 with a fair chunk of 436/437 and some 468. From '42 onwards it started to gain its feet so gradually going to majority 468 with some 548. After covering the German retreat from Lapland it got refitted in Denmark and was committed to Nordwind and by that stage would have been a mix of 548, 658 with some 468 and 447.
The 2nd echelon which would include 4th, 7th, 8th & 22nd would have started out with a mix of 447 and 468, improved with more 486 then some 548 and finally 658 would have had 468/447 until the end. While not the best, mid career onwards they would have been as good as the average Heer infantry division.
The trash would have been mainly 447, with sprinklings of 468/548/658 and decent numbers of 436/437.
There were a fair few rather mixed units like 18th Horst Wessel and 38th Nibelungen, even 33rd Charlemagne that were organised from prior units or the staff and students of training schools that had good to very good cadres, but were never built up to strength in men and equipment or had insufficient combat experience as a division, so would be represented by a mix of all types with a moderate preference for the better ones.
The SS was definitely a parallel national army on it's own, with everything from excellent to abysmal included and as expected later units quality suffered, often greatly. ASL's design for effect can cater for this, best look at a unit's performance in a battle to decide, but as a general rule 468 should only disappear from the premier divisions starting in mid-late '42 but survive in other SS units till war's end. Of course 468/447 could represent rear area troops in even the premier divisions if being overrun by a breakthrough at any time.
The SS kept raising divisions right to the end. With a few exceptions most of those were from mediocre to abysmal. Everything from Volksdeutsche (Germans living outside Germany) to Bosnians to the Kaminski Brigade. The later types were only capable of fighting unarmed civilians and the occasional partisan, real scum of the earth.
The premier SS divisions (1-3,5 and later 9-12) would have started as 468, graduating to 548 sometime in '42 and 658 by mid '43. Some others like 16 & 17, formed '43 would be best represented by mainly 548.
I take the different types to represent both armament and combat skill. While the premier divisions got upgraded at the squad level other units remained equipped at early war standard level for the most part. Some of the upgrading would have been unofficial, battlefield pick-ups and temporary merging of battalions/companies/platoons due to personnel losses and the resultant concentration of LMG, SMG, etc but there were also official reorganisations. Eg, 1st LSSAH started as a motorised infantry regiment, then a motorised division after Yugoslavia and in '42 was withdrawn to become a Panzergrenadier division, though in practice that ended up being a conversion to an over strength Panzer Division with 2 rather than 1 Panzer Abteilung (battalion). The original allocation of LMG was 1 per squad and went to 2 in '42.
All German divisions were supposed to be beefed up at the squad level, usually a 2nd LMG from '43 onwards and more SMG, semi-automatic rifles and finally StG 44 from mid-late '44 (most noticeably in the Volksgrenadier conversions). while the premier SS often got their upgrades earlier and more completely, the trash were later than many Heer units and simply did not have the skill to take full advantage.
436 or BFP's new 437 from PiF.
A chunk of the higher numbered trash all war and 6th Nord in '41. Not entirely, but a reasonable chunk of a scenario OoB.
447
A good part of 4th and 6th until late '43 or early '44. Early 7th & 8th. The majority type for the higher trash.
468
All premier until '42. Some in 2nd line (4th, 6th before '43, ditto 7th & 8th). The becoming the majority of 4th, 6th-8th in '43. The better elements of the higher numbered trash as they often started building with decent cadres.
548
Premier '42 until early '43. Increasing numbers in the 2nd line from mid '43, some in the trash. 16th & 17th the majority.
658
Premier from Kursk onwards. Good numbers in 2nd line and especially 16th and 17th from mid '44.. Small number in the rest.
I mentioned 6th Nord. It's early performance in '41 was quite abysmal, so majority 447 with a fair chunk of 436/437 and some 468. From '42 onwards it started to gain its feet so gradually going to majority 468 with some 548. After covering the German retreat from Lapland it got refitted in Denmark and was committed to Nordwind and by that stage would have been a mix of 548, 658 with some 468 and 447.
The 2nd echelon which would include 4th, 7th, 8th & 22nd would have started out with a mix of 447 and 468, improved with more 486 then some 548 and finally 658 would have had 468/447 until the end. While not the best, mid career onwards they would have been as good as the average Heer infantry division.
The trash would have been mainly 447, with sprinklings of 468/548/658 and decent numbers of 436/437.
There were a fair few rather mixed units like 18th Horst Wessel and 38th Nibelungen, even 33rd Charlemagne that were organised from prior units or the staff and students of training schools that had good to very good cadres, but were never built up to strength in men and equipment or had insufficient combat experience as a division, so would be represented by a mix of all types with a moderate preference for the better ones.
The SS was definitely a parallel national army on it's own, with everything from excellent to abysmal included and as expected later units quality suffered, often greatly. ASL's design for effect can cater for this, best look at a unit's performance in a battle to decide, but as a general rule 468 should only disappear from the premier divisions starting in mid-late '42 but survive in other SS units till war's end. Of course 468/447 could represent rear area troops in even the premier divisions if being overrun by a breakthrough at any time.
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I would start using 658 with the beginn of the Charkow battles . At least for the top Divisions... Most of the rest around the Kursk period.
This is from a designers point of view.
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
I use 658 squads for the four main SS units (1stt, 2nd SS, 3rd SS and Wiking) through out the war. This is to give the scenario some originality and a Cross of Iron feel from the old SL days.
Scott
Scott
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Paul hits it on the head,
I am playing a self made Kursk CG using Geo-Boards and some self made Hex-draw boards and CH's Hells Bridgehead and Psel II maps, I use all the counter types.
So you will see 6-5-8's mixed in with 5-4-8's and such depending on how much the unit has suffered etc.
Line Battalions from the 1st/2nd/3rd always start as 6-5-8 from kursk onwards, but degrade as combat takes it toll or you want to represent a unit that has been put through the mill (I am thinking 5th Wiking during the Korsun pocket etc).
pick and mix i say, and enjoy the sand box that is ASL.
I am playing a self made Kursk CG using Geo-Boards and some self made Hex-draw boards and CH's Hells Bridgehead and Psel II maps, I use all the counter types.
So you will see 6-5-8's mixed in with 5-4-8's and such depending on how much the unit has suffered etc.
Line Battalions from the 1st/2nd/3rd always start as 6-5-8 from kursk onwards, but degrade as combat takes it toll or you want to represent a unit that has been put through the mill (I am thinking 5th Wiking during the Korsun pocket etc).
pick and mix i say, and enjoy the sand box that is ASL.
Rock SgtDan
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So "trash" is the new politically correct synonym for SS?
Evan Sherry
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Thank you for the responses. That was a nice discussion.
Proff3RTR
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As it should be.
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Paul was evoking the less trained or efficient elements of the SS units.
The fact that some SS Divisions or units didn't meet the standards of the main elite ones is common knowledge - which a specialist of those units like you knows well.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
I was agreeing with Paul Robin, if you read I point out that I am running a solo Kursk CG, so am looking at LSSAH,DR & TK, so at the start of the offensive most squad types would be 6-5-8, I am on day 2 (Late PM 6th July) and sample kompanieare from LSSAH's 2nd SS-PzGr-Regt LSSAH is set up as follows due to ELR/HoB & combat losses
Kompanie Hq:
1 x 9-2 (some are 9-1 or less now due to losses)
1 x 8-1 (again some are 8-0)
2 x 3-4-8
1 x LMG 1 x ATR
1st Zug:
1 x 8-1
2 x 6-5-8
1 x 3-4-8 HS
2 x LMG
2nd Zug
1 x 8-1, 1 x 7-0
1 x 6-5-8
1 x 5-4-8
1 x LMG
3rd Zug
1 x 9-1, 1 x 8-0
3 x 6-5-8
2 x LMG
4th Zug (Schwere waffen)
1 x 9-1, 1 x 8-1
6 x 3-4-8
2 x HMG
2 x 81mm Mtr
1 x LMG
I have not included the Kompanies vehicles as at the moment they are in contact with the enemy around the village Bol Majatschka and are fighting elements of 3rd Mech Corps 100th Tank brigade and 49th Guards Tank Brigade, they are being supported by the rest of the Battalion (1st Abtielung) and part of the Anti Tank Abtielung and Stug Abtielung (6 Stug III G).
the Later divisions/Kampfgruppe I would rate according to historical reference, so units such as Handsar I would give mainly 4-4-7 to at a push, the odd 5-4-8 but very few if any 6-5-8.
some of the units that mainly fought Partisans I would give a few 4-4-7 but mainly 4-3-6' and a low ELR (unless a Ukrainian unit, as they were brutal and tended to fight hard).
This all changes when we look at the western front from Normandy on, when you read some good Historical AAR's you see that some of the old gang fought in a mediocre way, not always but it seems LSSAH or LAH as it was known by mid 44 had a very hit and miss campaign, so you would have to look at the units performance on any given day.
DR for example, did not really shine in Normandy, a few exception such as Ernst Barkmann at 'Barkmann's corner' but on the whole not overly great when you measure it against their past performances.
The problem I feel is the good old 'Waffen SS' conundrum, second you mention those words all go into collective hate spasms and clear thinking tends to go out the window.
Thankfully, I can sit and look at a units performance and see it for what it was, if a unit requires 6-5-8's even if they shot a load of PoW, then 6-5-8's it is. on the other hand, if it is a unit that performed poorly then 4-4-7's they are getting, But and this is the important factor, ASL is for some a sand box into history, the system is not 100% correct warfare wise, and nor can it be, but you can get a vast amount of enjoyment out of it and it whiles away the winter nights nicely.
all the best
Perry
Kompanie Hq:
1 x 9-2 (some are 9-1 or less now due to losses)
1 x 8-1 (again some are 8-0)
2 x 3-4-8
1 x LMG 1 x ATR
1st Zug:
1 x 8-1
2 x 6-5-8
1 x 3-4-8 HS
2 x LMG
2nd Zug
1 x 8-1, 1 x 7-0
1 x 6-5-8
1 x 5-4-8
1 x LMG
3rd Zug
1 x 9-1, 1 x 8-0
3 x 6-5-8
2 x LMG
4th Zug (Schwere waffen)
1 x 9-1, 1 x 8-1
6 x 3-4-8
2 x HMG
2 x 81mm Mtr
1 x LMG
I have not included the Kompanies vehicles as at the moment they are in contact with the enemy around the village Bol Majatschka and are fighting elements of 3rd Mech Corps 100th Tank brigade and 49th Guards Tank Brigade, they are being supported by the rest of the Battalion (1st Abtielung) and part of the Anti Tank Abtielung and Stug Abtielung (6 Stug III G).
the Later divisions/Kampfgruppe I would rate according to historical reference, so units such as Handsar I would give mainly 4-4-7 to at a push, the odd 5-4-8 but very few if any 6-5-8.
some of the units that mainly fought Partisans I would give a few 4-4-7 but mainly 4-3-6' and a low ELR (unless a Ukrainian unit, as they were brutal and tended to fight hard).
This all changes when we look at the western front from Normandy on, when you read some good Historical AAR's you see that some of the old gang fought in a mediocre way, not always but it seems LSSAH or LAH as it was known by mid 44 had a very hit and miss campaign, so you would have to look at the units performance on any given day.
DR for example, did not really shine in Normandy, a few exception such as Ernst Barkmann at 'Barkmann's corner' but on the whole not overly great when you measure it against their past performances.
The problem I feel is the good old 'Waffen SS' conundrum, second you mention those words all go into collective hate spasms and clear thinking tends to go out the window.
Thankfully, I can sit and look at a units performance and see it for what it was, if a unit requires 6-5-8's even if they shot a load of PoW, then 6-5-8's it is. on the other hand, if it is a unit that performed poorly then 4-4-7's they are getting, But and this is the important factor, ASL is for some a sand box into history, the system is not 100% correct warfare wise, and nor can it be, but you can get a vast amount of enjoyment out of it and it whiles away the winter nights nicely.
all the best
Perry
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Perry, I was answering to SRD - which you may not see if he is on your ignore,
Funnily, I confused him with Scott Holst and called him a specialist of the SS.
Funnily, I confused him with Scott Holst and called him a specialist of the SS.
Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
One of the orthonormal with the user of 6-5-8 s is the undermined morale so they are a very blunt instrument to recreate units. Of course you can ssr replacements but that needs an extra layer of rules. This is a good reason to use 5-4-8s who ashtray have a defined elr path.
Ditto, the ignore feature works really well, sometimes too well in terms of context.
wrongway149
Forum Guru
Agreed.
wrongway149
Forum Guru
A willingness to put available lead towards the enemy is a factor in the Unit Firepower factor game. Most of the SS units had plenty of this. 'motivation' matters, even if partially political.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Motivation will get a unit a lot of places, couple this with good kit and an aggressive spirit (which is different from motivation) and you have a very dangerous opponent.