When do you string LOS for a Motion Attempt

[Brian W]

This came up in a game:

A tank begins moving out of LOS of an enemy vehicle. The enemy vehicle at one point declares a Motion attempt. At that point, the LOS was checked and it was blocked. Has the enemy vehicle taken a Motion Attempt, which automatically fails?

Or, is there no Motion Attempt because there was no LOS yet?

The rules are clear for when there is LOS at start, but not when there is no LOS at Motion Attempt Declaration.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

The Motion Attempt have never happened since it was not allowed as the Tank must have the enemy unit in LOS to be able to attempt it.
The only exception to this is the one stated, if the enemy unit had been in LOS all along, then the Motion Attempt is failed but still attempted.

 

[Ole Boe]

I think that a good case could be made for allowing the Motion Atttempt which automatically fails since a dr <= 0 is required.

Note that it is legal to make a Motion Attempt while the enemy unitis out of LOS, and you may even succeed if the enemy unit spent enough MF/MP in your LOS before moving out of it.

The only sentence which may support Peter's answer is the following: "The enemy unit must be one that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that MPh". Does this sentence require the enemy to actually enter LOS to make the Motion Attempt legal? I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards a legal, but failed Motion Attempt.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

I agree with Ole that no LOS at the moment of declaration of the Motion Attempt is not needed but still the enemy Tank must have been in LOS at some point during the move but not at the start of it's move.
If it turns out that the Tank have never been in the LOS of the attempting vehicle then the attempt have never happened as it was not allowed in the first place.

 

[Bjoernar]

Hi

When a unit fires at another unit that turns out to not be in LOS, the firing must still be done, i.e. the unit must be marked and a DR must be carried out.

Therefore:
Should LOS for Motion attempts be treated as LOS for firing at units or not.


I think Motion attempts should not be treated similar to as firing at an unit not in LOS. For these purposes the rules writes explicitly about it but this is not mentioned in the Motion attempt rules


Bjørnar

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

Of course it should not be treated the same as firing at a unit not in LOS since it is not the same.

 

[Treadhead]

I think that a good case could be made for allowing the Motion Atttempt which automatically fails since a dr <= 0 is required.

I agree. It seems to me that the Motion Attempt dr must be attempted before LOS is made.

This is not directly supported by the text, but there is a provision for checking whether there was LOS at the start of the MPh. And that provision says "subsequent", meaning after the Motion Attempt dr.

Apply the same logic in this case. Motion Attempt first, then check LOS.

Note that it is legal to make a Motion Attempt while the enemy unitis out of LOS, and you may even succeed if the enemy unit spent enough MF/MP in your LOS before moving out of it.

Okay. Interesting enough.

The only sentence which may support Peter's answer is the following: "The enemy unit must be one that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that MPh". Does this sentence require the enemy to actually enter LOS to make the Motion Attempt legal? I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards a legal, but failed Motion Attempt.

That sentence means that the enemy unit must a) not been in the vehicle's LOS before b) entering that vehicle's LOS. So yes, at some point the enemy will have had to enter LOS to allow a Motion Attempt.

However, the question still comes down to sequence of events.

I believe the correct sequence is: 1) declare and make Motion Attempt; then 2) check LOS for MP spent in LOS; then 3) compare dr with appropriate MP amount actually in LOS; then 4) if no LOS ever existed, then Motion Attempt fails.

In Brian's example, the LOS may have been blocked "at that point", which I take to mean "the enemy unit's current Location". I note that this does not itself negate the Motion Attempt, because he may still have met all the requirements. He would then have to "backtrack" to determine how many MP were spent in LOS. If it subsequently shows that zero MP were in LOS, then the Motion Attempt fails.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken

[Edited for details: not actually "drm", rather compare the dr to the MP expended...]