When do Caves become visible?

Scott Hasson

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This is my first foray into the arena of caves and I am having some difficulty understanding the interrelatedness of the following:

G11.3 HIP: Cave counters, as well as their contents, are always considered to be in Concealment Terrain regardless of the other terrain in their hex and always set up hidden. … Normal rules for HIP and HIP-loss apply to Cave counters (A12.33/E1.16/G.2) and their contents except as stated otherwise (see 11.31 and 11.75). A Cave counter set up in a jungle, kunai or bamboo hex is considered to occupy that terrain type for the purposes of G.2, provided its CA Hexside is not also a cliff hexside. When a Cave counter is revealed it is placed onboard, but its hidden contents are not unless their "?"-loss action revealed that Cave counter [EXC: Searching; 11.33].

A12.33 FORTIFICATIONS: Fortifications in Concealment Terrain may always set up hidden and remain hidden until use of its protective TEM is claimed, or a unit therein loses its concealment, or a Good Order enemy ground unit gains a LOS to its Location and is within 16 hexes. [EXC to all: Minefields; B28.1.] Fortifications set up in non-Concealment Terrain are treated as if set up in Concealment Terrain [EXC: they also lose their HIP status due to enemy LOS regardless of range].

E1.16 FORTIFICATIONS: All Fortification counters are set up hidden at night regardless of terrain, and remain hidden until their protective TEM is used, a non-Dummy enemy unit (determined by the procedure given in A12.11 for minefields) enters the Location that contains it (or enters a pillbox's—but not a cave's—hex), or extra MF/MP are used …

I understand the G11.31 & G11.75 portions as they apply to when HIP is lost but the actual question is when do the Caves get revealed? I see it as two different categories: Concealment Terrain and Other-Than-Concealment Terrain.

If the Caves are setup in Concealment Terrain, they are revealed according to A12.33 (when their TEM is claimed vs an attack, a unit therein loses concealment in LOS, etc.). Otherwise, they are revealed when the hex is Searched (G11.33 & A12.152).

If the Caves are setup in other than-Concealment Terrain, are they revealed when in LOS (A12.33 EXC) or does E1.16 apply in its entirety (when their TEM is claimed vs an attack, a unit therein loses concealment in LOS, etc. or they are Searched?).

In the following daytime example, Caves are setup on board 36 in hex V4 and V5 with CA as indicated. A Marine squad is setup in X5 with LOS to both cave hexes. When are the caves revealed? I believe that the Cave in V5 is clearly in the first category – Concealment Terrain. It will be revealed when the TEM is used, enemy concealment-loss activity therein or searched. What about the Cave in V4?

Cave2.png

Thank you all in advance for clearing this up for me.

Scott.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If the Cave is not set up in jungle, kunai, or bamboo then I believe the normal rules for it losing hidden status (A12.33) applies - i.e., as soon as it comes into LOS of a Good Order enemy unit it is placed on the map.
If it is set up in jungle, kunai, or bamboo - then G.2 - i.e., E1.16 applies. So whether the Cave is set up in concealment terrain or not does not matter, I think.

In your examples, both Caves are revealed, unless the woods in V5 is jungle.
 

Scott Hasson

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Klas,

Thank you for the clarification. The intent of the example is that V5 is Jungle terrain.

Scott.
 

jrv

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If the Caves are setup in Concealment Terrain, they are revealed according to A12.33 (when their TEM is claimed vs an attack, a unit therein loses concealment in LOS, etc.). Otherwise, they are revealed when the hex is Searched (G11.33 & A12.152).
This bit is not correct. Caves set up in concealment terrain lose concealment when an enemy unit has LOS within 16 hexes unless G.2/E1.16 is in effect and applies to the cave.

JR
 

jrv

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So whether the Cave is set up in concealment terrain or not does not matter, I think.
A fortification in concealment terrain will not lose HIP if the range to the enemy unit is > 16 hexes. That situation should be fairly rare with caves.

JR
 
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