When can Flamethrowers fire or not fire?

Hudson

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In the book, it seemed to me that flamethrowers could not be used during Subsequent Fire or Final Protective Fire Phase.

Can FT's be used on defensive fire?
 

Pocky101

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They can be used anytime that anything else could normally fire. EXCEPT they can't fire as Subsequent First Fire or and Final Protective Fire. So as Prep Fire, Defensive First Fire, or Advancing Fire. It should be noted that when they fire during Advancing Fire that they are not halved and they can fire during the Defensive Fire Phase as long as they weren't used for any Defensive First Fire shots.
 

Kevin Kenneally

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In the book, it seemed to me that flamethrowers could not be used during Subsequent Fire or Final Protective Fire Phase.

Can FT's be used on defensive fire?
I have no luck when I roll for the use of FTs...

The numbers 10 & Higher are always there.
 

ireland94

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The restrictions as to when the FT can fire are because the FT is a one shot weapon (no ROF).

After worrying about my wording overnight, let me clarify "one shot weapon".

The FT may be fired only once per phase side, i.e., once as the moving player (PFPh/AFPh) and once as the defending player (DFF/DFPh). That makes twice per game turn.

Some key SKRB clauses:

4.0 "A squad my fire any on weapon at no cost to its own FP, or any two weapons at the cost of forfeiting its own FP for the current and any remaining fire phases in that player turn (except for SFF/FPF).

4.2 "A unit may not use 2 FT, but a full squad may make a separate attack with its own FP. A FT may not combine with any other attack, nor may it form a FG."

3.3.3 Final Protective Fire (FPF) "A unit the survives a Defensive First Fire attack can be fired upon again the same location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only by different attackers or if it expended at least 2 MF/MP in that hex.

This last one is interesting because if a moving enemy unit is attacked in a hex that it expended less the 2 MP (into an open hex, grain hex, orchard, etc), it can only be shot at once by the squad with the FT. The squad can use its inherent or the FT but not both. Shooting at a unit moving into a building however allows both shots (takes 2 MP to move into a building thus possibility of 2 shots, with one being inherent and other being the FT. Order of which shot first is not applicable).
 
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ireland94

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Nah, Kev was probably shooting at a range of two with a CXed, non-elite unit. LOL
 

jrv

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3.3.3 Final Protective Fire (FPF) "A unit the survives a Defensive First Fire attack can be fired upon again the same location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only by different attackers or if it expended at least 2 MF/MP in that hex.

This last one is interesting because if a moving enemy unit is attacked in a hex that it expended less the 2 MP (into an open hex, grain hex, orchard, etc), it can only be shot at once by the squad with the FT. The squad can use its inherent or the FT but not both. Shooting at a unit moving into a building however allows both shots (takes 2 MP to move into a building thus possibility of 2 shots, with one being inherent and other being the FT. Order of which shot first is not applicable).
This is not the intent of the rule. The squad can fire both the inherent and the FT on the same MF. "Different attackers" means roughly "different weapons" in, "A unit the survives a Defensive First Fire attack can be fired upon again the same location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only by different attackers or if it expended at least 2 MF/MP in that hex". A squad with a MG must FG because of Mandatory Firegroup requirements and can't attack separately, but a weapon that can't FG (e.g. FT, PSK) can be fired independently on the same MF expenditure. The FT and the squad's inherent FP are different attackers.

The wording of the rule is unfortunate, because yours is a perfectly good interpretation, and probably the one that most players will think of first. I am applying ASL knowledge here. I expect that MMP would not change the rules that drastically.

JR
 
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ireland94

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jrv,

I agree entirely with you and had wondered about the wording myself.

Being on vacation and not having BOB (Big Orange Book alias ASLRB) handy, I would image the wording is more succinct there.

I have tried not to read into the SK rules so I played the minimalist in reading between the lines.

Thanks for enlightenment.

Pat
 

Kevin Kenneally

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This is not the intent of the rule. The squad can fire both the inherent and the FT on the same MF. "Different attackers" means roughly "different weapons" in, "A unit the survives a Defensive First Fire attack can be fired upon again the same location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only by different attackers or if it expended at least 2 MF/MP in that hex". A squad with a MG must FG because of Mandatory Firegroup requirements and can't attack separately, but a weapon that can't FG (e.g. FT, PSK) can be fired independently on the same MF expenditure. The FT and the squad's inherent FP are different attackers.

The wording of the rule is unfortunate, because yours is a perfectly good interpretation, and probably the one that most players will think of first. I am applying ASL knowledge here. I expect that MMP would not change the rules that drastically.

JR
WORDINGS?

Hell, in them old SL (Squad Leader) days..... I played with some "additional" rules AFTER consuming several beers.

That's when playing REALLY became FUN....................
 

ireland94

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Jrv,

Got home from my vacation so now my BOB (Big Orange Book alias ASLRB) is at hand.

I have researched the FT usage in full ASL.

"A22.31 FG: A FT may not combine with any other unit/weapon - including the unit firing it or even another FT."

Same as SK and not disagreement about this issue.

"A8.14 FOLLOW-UP ATTACK: ... A unit that survives a Defensive First Fire attack with no effect can be fired on again in the same Location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only be different attackers or if it expended at least two MF/MP in the Location. ..."

Now comes the problem. This topic has been discussed on the full ASL forums but I do not know if an agreement has been reached. Is there a clarification or errata statement in the Annuals or Journals? Is there a Prez says covering this.

Without any of these I have only my original opinion to fall back on.

jrv, do you have a specific reference that can shed light on this?

I agree that the wording leaves us in a grey area.

Pat
 
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Blaze

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Jrv,

Got home from my vacation so now my BOB (Big Orange Book alias ASLRB) is at hand.

I have researched the FT usage in full ASL.


"A22.31 FG: A FT may not combine with any other unit/weapon - including the unit firing it or even another FT."

Same as SK and not disagreement about this issue.

"A8.14 FOLLOW-UP ATTACK: ... A unit that survives a Defensive First Fire attack with no effect can be fired on again in the same Location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only be different attackers or if it expended at least two MF/MP in the Location. ..."

Now comes the problem. This topic has been discussed on the full ASL forums but I do not know if an agreement has been reached. Is there a clarification or errata statement in the Annuals or Journals? Is there a Prez says covering this.

Without any of these I have only my original opinion to fall back on.

jrv, do you have a specific reference that can shed light on this?

I agree that the wording leaves us in a grey area.

Pat

Yeah, a FT is one of those rear cases where A8.14 matters due to the FT FG restriction. Good spot on this.
 

jrv

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Jrv,

Got home from my vacation so now my BOB (Big Orange Book alias ASLRB) is at hand.

I have researched the FT usage in full ASL.

"A22.31 FG: A FT may not combine with any other unit/weapon - including the unit firing it or even another FT."

Same as SK and not disagreement about this issue.

"A8.14 FOLLOW-UP ATTACK: ... A unit that survives a Defensive First Fire attack with no effect can be fired on again in the same Location during its MPh before expending additional MF/MP, but only be different attackers or if it expended at least two MF/MP in the Location. ..."

Now comes the problem. This topic has been discussed on the full ASL forums but I do not know if an agreement has been reached. Is there a clarification or errata statement in the Annuals or Journals? Is there a Prez says covering this.

Without any of these I have only my original opinion to fall back on.

jrv, do you have a specific reference that can shed light on this?

I agree that the wording leaves us in a grey area.

Pat
Because the wording was unfortunate, I had to punt and ask for a Perry Sez (http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?101658-A8.14-Fire-by-same-quot-attacker-quot-on-same-MF-MP-point&p=1414577#post1414577). Long story short, an "attacker" in this sense is a weapon and not the squad possessing it.

JR
 

btbroot

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In the book, it seemed to me that flamethrowers could not be used during Subsequent Fire or Final Protective Fire Phase.
My excuses, where did you get this? :crosseye:

I see no restrictions for DEFENDER FT firing in MPh or DPh in ASLRB nor in ASLSK1RB. And this thread seems to be quite unique discussing this subject in particular.
 

Vinnie

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Firing in the MPh is First Firing. Once marked First Fired you can sometimes the Subsequent First Fire (ending up marked Final Fire) or if already so marked duringbthe MPh you can Final Pritective Fire against a moving adjacent unit. A unit marked First Fired fir SW usage purposes cannot use a FT.
Note, a sqd can be marked First Fired since it has used it's inherent FP and then still use the FT since it has a SW usage spare.
 

btbroot

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So, your point is in that if an MMC posessing a FT and both are marked with First Fire, this MMC would forfeight FT in SFF/FPF since FT attacks cannot be combined with any other?

What about a Leader posessing a FT then? His attacks in MPh (First Fire/SFF/FPF) consist of only FT fire power.

And if so, why Leaders can use FTs better than Elite MMCs?
 

richfam

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So, your point is in that if an MMC posessing a FT and both are marked with First Fire, this MMC would forfeight FT in SFF/FPF since FT attacks cannot be combined with any other?
A FT can never be used in Subsequent First Fire (SFF) or FPF.
SFF and FPF attacks may only be made with Inherent FP, MGs, and IFE.

Rules references:

SFF: 3.31, 3rd para (ASLSK1) / 3.3.3, 3rd para; 6.8 (ASLSK EP1) / A8.3 (ASL)

FPF: 3.31, 4th para (ASLSK1) / 3.3.3, 5th para; 6.8 (ASLSK EP1) / A8.31 (ASL)
 
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