A25.234 is clear. Remains a HW unit until....broken.
SO, it is no longer part of the HW.
There is nothing further to consider.
Yes this is not recent..but in ASL times it is just like yesterday
When a Human Wave unit is no longer a HW unit?
- Thread starter turlusiflu
- Start date
SO, it is no longer part of the HW.
There is nothing further to consider.
Yes this is not recent..but in ASL times it is just like yesterday
Doug Leslie
Elder Member
Suppose that a banzai charge/human has expended 7 MF. One unit forming part of the charge has insufficient MF to enter the next hex that allows it to remain part of the wave but the other units can enter hexes costing 1 MF. Does the human wave come to an end or can the majority of units spend their final MF to continue moving forward?
It appears to me that the rules are in conflict.
25.235 ENDING THE HUMAN WAVE: A unit remains a HW Unit (even if no longer adjacent to another HW Unit) until it is: eliminated; broken; out of MF at the end of an Impulse; at the start of an Impulse in a Location (or in a hex with a pillbox) containing an armed, Known enemy unit; or is a Guard due to capturing a SMC/Unarmed/Disrupted unit (25.234). When there are no HW Units left or no HW Unit is able to enter a new Location, the HW ends. A unit that has been part of a HW may use Advancing Fire and/or Advance if otherwise able to [EXC: if in a Location containing a Known enemy unit it is marked with a CC counter (or a Melee counter, as appropriate; 4.152, 20.54) and cannot advance out of that Location as long as that CC/Melee continues].
It seems pretty clear from this that the majority of the wave can continue for another impulse.
Then however we have D14.3-14.31-
D14.3 IMPULSE MOVEMENT: Impulse Movement is a form of movement where units in different Locations coordinate their movement. This represents situations such as Human Wave (A25.23) or Platoon Movement (14.2). During Impulse Movement, all participating units move as a stack as per A4.2, even if moving in multiple Locations. A leader using Impulse Movement only affects other participating units in his current Location, not units in other Locations of this "multi-Location stack" [EXC: MF bonus for a leader participating in a Column; E11.52].
14.31 IMPULSE: When using Impulse Movement, the MPh of all participating units is broken into a number of Impulses. During each Impulse each participating unit may perform a maximum of one MF/MP expenditure (EX: moving to a new Location; changing VCA one hexside; using VBM along one hexside; exiting a Foxhole; using Infantry bypass along 1-4 hexsides). Actions that cost no MF/MP (EX: dropping a SW; changing CE/BU status) may be performed as normal during each Impulse. An Impulse ends when every participating unit has completed its single MF/MP expenditure, or the player declares the Impulse to be over. Units using Impulse Movement do not need to predesignate their actions, as in normal stacked movement (A4.2).
The MF/MP cost of an Impulse is equal to the most MF/MP spent by any unit during that Impulse, and all the units are considered to have spent this number of MF/MP during that Impulse (even if they didn't perform an MF/MP expenditure). This even allows a Non-Stopped vehicle to spend MP doing nothing if other units expend MP during that Impulse. No unit may expend MF/MP unless all units participating in that Impulse have enough remaining MF/MP, so all the participants must end their MPh if one of the units lacks necessary MF/MP [EXC: wounded SMC; A25.232].
It appears to me that the rules are in conflict.
25.235 ENDING THE HUMAN WAVE: A unit remains a HW Unit (even if no longer adjacent to another HW Unit) until it is: eliminated; broken; out of MF at the end of an Impulse; at the start of an Impulse in a Location (or in a hex with a pillbox) containing an armed, Known enemy unit; or is a Guard due to capturing a SMC/Unarmed/Disrupted unit (25.234). When there are no HW Units left or no HW Unit is able to enter a new Location, the HW ends. A unit that has been part of a HW may use Advancing Fire and/or Advance if otherwise able to [EXC: if in a Location containing a Known enemy unit it is marked with a CC counter (or a Melee counter, as appropriate; 4.152, 20.54) and cannot advance out of that Location as long as that CC/Melee continues].
It seems pretty clear from this that the majority of the wave can continue for another impulse.
Then however we have D14.3-14.31-
D14.3 IMPULSE MOVEMENT: Impulse Movement is a form of movement where units in different Locations coordinate their movement. This represents situations such as Human Wave (A25.23) or Platoon Movement (14.2). During Impulse Movement, all participating units move as a stack as per A4.2, even if moving in multiple Locations. A leader using Impulse Movement only affects other participating units in his current Location, not units in other Locations of this "multi-Location stack" [EXC: MF bonus for a leader participating in a Column; E11.52].
14.31 IMPULSE: When using Impulse Movement, the MPh of all participating units is broken into a number of Impulses. During each Impulse each participating unit may perform a maximum of one MF/MP expenditure (EX: moving to a new Location; changing VCA one hexside; using VBM along one hexside; exiting a Foxhole; using Infantry bypass along 1-4 hexsides). Actions that cost no MF/MP (EX: dropping a SW; changing CE/BU status) may be performed as normal during each Impulse. An Impulse ends when every participating unit has completed its single MF/MP expenditure, or the player declares the Impulse to be over. Units using Impulse Movement do not need to predesignate their actions, as in normal stacked movement (A4.2).
The MF/MP cost of an Impulse is equal to the most MF/MP spent by any unit during that Impulse, and all the units are considered to have spent this number of MF/MP during that Impulse (even if they didn't perform an MF/MP expenditure). This even allows a Non-Stopped vehicle to spend MP doing nothing if other units expend MP during that Impulse. No unit may expend MF/MP unless all units participating in that Impulse have enough remaining MF/MP, so all the participants must end their MPh if one of the units lacks necessary MF/MP [EXC: wounded SMC; A25.232].
| Is this a situation where E2 has to be applied? | |
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MajorDomo
DM? Chuck H2O in his face
A human wave can create a DC hero, who takes off like Jessie Owens to his target, then followed by continued wave movement.
None of these other conditions have ever occured in a scenario I was involved in.
Also, I believe that Human Wavers are immune to HOB.
Earlier in the rules 25.232 give an example of the HW unit having to enter an Entrench/Crest if lacking sufficient MF to enter a new location. It still gets to move in its hex as it CAN enter the Fox/Crest.
Also, Impulse Move is mentioned in 25.232. For all intents and purposes you CUT and PASTE that rule section to 25.232. Therefore, subsequent 25.234 abilities will be considered latter rules as you don't want to print the entire rule section for each reference...that's why refer to them. All rules can't occupy the same line in the RB.
In Addition, your highlight of no HW Unit is able to enter a new Location, the HW ends. also is pretty clear. It doesn't state "any HW unit is not able to enter" When a unit can't enter another location, it ceases to be a HW unit as it will finish it's MPh there since it can't enter another location.
Doug Leslie
Elder Member
I think that the meaning of both sections is pretty clear.The problem is that they seem to contradict each other. In Chapter A, the human wave continues until all participants are unable to move further. In Chapter D, it ends if one of the participants has insufficient MF to continue.
Larry
Elder Member
A25.2322: If the HW Unit is unable to move to a new Location, it must spend its remaining Impulses in its current Location.
The other units keep on trucking per A25.234.
The other units keep on trucking per A25.234.
Doug Leslie
Elder Member
But how do you square that with D14.31? Take this example:
The Japanese started a banzai charge against the British 447 which started behind the hedge in hexes AA6 and BB6. They have expended 7 MF to reach this position and the units in W5 can move no further. The 447 in X4 could use its remaining MF to enter X3.
According to A25.35, it is possible for it to do so since it is "able to enter a new location". According to D14.31, it must end its MPh since the other units lack the necessary MF for the human wave to continue.
I think that E2 applies here and that D14.31 supersedes A25.35 but I would be happy to be proved wrong!
Larry
Elder Member
The exception to D14.31 cites wounded SMC; A25.232. The semicolon is the problem. Is "[EXC: wounded SMC; A25.232]" describing two exceptions or one with clarification. The ";" separates two items on a list after a ":". Usually.
The entirety of the wounded SMC rule is contained in the italicized text surrounded by brackets followed by a footnote, 32.
If a unit can't cross a wall into a gutted building in a HW, I agree that that locks the whole HW in place. It depends on what causes the "unable."
The entirety of the wounded SMC rule is contained in the italicized text surrounded by brackets followed by a footnote, 32.
The question is what happens when one or more units in a HW can no longer move or expend MF. That is addressed by the example of the third impulse at the bottom left of page A53. The units in N2 and P3 must continue the HW.
If a unit can't cross a wall into a gutted building in a HW, I agree that that locks the whole HW in place. It depends on what causes the "unable."
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
This is usually how an EXC text with corresponding rules reference is written in the ASL rules...so it is only one exception.
E.g., A1.23: "[EXC: SSR-defined units; 19.132]"
STAVKA
Elder Member
Excuse me, your answers have no value to my questions, perhaps Perry Cocke can do better than you.
How would you play it when a moving broken HW unit becomes Berserk?
Battle Hardens?
creates a Hero?
Doug Leslie
Elder Member
I think that he did answer your questions.
15.1 HEAT OF BATTLE: The cauldron of battle, which destroyed so many units that failed the test of arms, could also forge better soldiers and/or acts of desperation borne of heroism or despair. This process is reflected by a Heat of Battle DR which follows any Original MC or Rally (not Self-Rally) DR of 2. Unarmed units, Cavalry, PRC, Heroes, crews (including both inherent and Temporary Crews; 21.22), participants in a Human Wave attack, already berserk units, Climbing/Swimming/Wading units, and units in boats/on parachute counters are not subject to Heat of Battle. The Heat Of Battle DR is subject to the following cumulative DRM. The +1 DRM for a broken unit applies even if the unit rallied as a result of the 2 DR which allowed the Heat of Battle DR. A Final Heat Of Battle DR of 5 or 6 results in both Hero Generation and Battle Hardening.
Since human wave units are exempt from HOB , none of the situations described by you can arise.
STAVKA
Elder Member
No, not at all, and you do the same error as he does, Broken HW units are no longer considered to be HW units.
Doug Leslie
Elder Member
If they are no longer HW units, then normal HOB rules would apply. Unless I am missing something.
fanatic+1
Ryan Kent
I would play it that the unit ends its MPh when it breaks, regardless of what happens after.
Edit: I now see that the unit's Mph does not end when it breaks until all DFF against it is resolved in its now broken state. If it HOBs during that fire upon it while still "moving" it could become berserk or generate a hero or BH and rally and then complete its move, less any MP spent before being broken. I don't think it can rejoin the HW.
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Wayne
Doing Plenty, Kinda Slow
Agreed. A25.234 1st sentence ends it's HW participation (if it breaks) and I read no way a former-HW unit may rejoin its still-flowing HW.
[So, even if if breaks and Rallies in place owing to an HOB event reviving the brokie (e.g. Berserk or Battle Hardening), it can no longer continue as p/o the HW.]
MFs allowing, A15.431 mandates a broken ex-HW unit that goes Berserk must make a Berserk Charge even though its MPh is already started. [I kinda think the HW would be paused until this Charge is completed -- "Berserk units go first" -- but that's a guess as this would occur after ASOP step 3.31A.]
As to whether a HW unit that breaks and then Battle Hardens may continue Its MPh right after the HW move is completed, IDK but suspect not owing to no text (AFAICS) specifically allowing it. IOW, breaking ends a unit's MPh [EXC: if it is revived via a Berserk occurrence.]
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
It started its MPh as part of a HW and once broken is no longer part of that HW thus ending his MPh [EXC: for subsequent defensive fire at that MF expenditure in the Location he was broken and in the broken state]. If subsequently he rallies (e.g. becomes Berserk) he is simply in that state until KIA or otherwise loses its Berserk status.
Wayne
Doing Plenty, Kinda Slow
If broken and hit w/an A8.14 follow-up attack, say, he'd be subject to FFNAM (i.e., while still moving).eASLRB said:
A thus-inflicted MC DR making him Berserk would constitute him going "...berserk while still moving..." and he'd be compelled to Charge from that point (assuming remaining MF) as per A15.431.
STAVKA
Elder Member
You are correct, my errata clarifies that the rule is poorly written.
A hero/mmc can run behind the enemy lines after the HW units have conducted their HW, and cause big time failure to rout.
An AFV conducting armor assault in a HW and HW Berserk is created from broken HW units, now the AFV can freeze the enemy, and the Berserk can move after the AFV have moved. This also applies in non-HW situation.
Can play both ways but in our circles and tournaments the errata are in play.
But what happens if a hero is created, he can only I assume, declare late CX unless he have already spent 7 or 8 MF (5-6 MF for a MMC).
Here is a link for the HOB A15 subject that we see as clarifications and you perhaps as errata not official, of course.
Heat of Battle A15
The original Heat of Battle rules (berserk rules in particular), have several issues. Have been clarified, making it easier to read, understand, explain to others and apply during play.
forum.aslsweden.com
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