What would make VASSAL more user friendly for pbem games?

[GJK]

Though it's usually not a terribly difficult task, I always find that with new users of VASSAL there's always a little learning curve when it comes to doing log files for pbem games. It will never fail that the first or second log will have nothing recorded for it - the new player simply forgot to record the log after playing mine.

I've tinkered around with Cyberboard, but never played a pbem game with it so I can't comment, but I've often heard that it is usually the preferred way of playing pbem if given the choice between it and VASSAL. Maybe a Cyberboard vet can chime in, but what makes it "better" or "easier"? Are there some tools built in that aid in pbem play that VASSAL could, uh hum, borrow?

What about ADC2? I've heard of features like "area of influence" where the opposing players units are hidden until you move to within their predefined area of influence (it may be called something else in ADC2). What features from ADC2's pbem format could VASSAL possibly borrow or enhance for it's own use?

Or do you find that pbem with VASSAL works just fine and have had no problems helping new users to get going with recording and playing log files?

 

[Keith Todd]

"I've heard of features like "area of influence" where the opposing players units are hidden until you move to within their predefined area of influence"


LOS and Range for most ADC2 modules I have played. In CWB there is both areas.

I generally have found the best method to teach new VASSAL users is I send them a practice log or two. The chat windows explains what I am doing as the new person steps through the log. That way also the other player gets a sense of the "protocol and procedure" of PBEMing the particular game.

Keith

 

[Dr Zaius]

Part of the problem is VASSAL, but a lot of it isn't. Games that really excel in PBEM, TOAW or Campaign Series for example, were designed with PBEM in mind from the beginning. The way most boardgames were designed -- because of the way phases and turns work -- make PBEM cumbersome at best and unworkable at worst.

I have no doubt that VASSAL will continue to improve, but it will never be able to eliminate the inherent problems most of these older boardgame designs suffer from.

ADC has one major drawback: using it to create maps is a real pain. The way the engine creates maps is an entirely different approach than VASSAL and not all that user friendly.

 

[GJK]

Good points Don. Some games require you to handle some functions for the other player in order to cut down on the number of logs that are sent back and forth (ASL comes to mind). Some games seem to work out ok though, for example the CWBS from The Gamers. I've had a game of "No Better Place to Die" going for several weeks now (103 log files sent so far) and it's been really smooth playing. This is obviously because the turn sequence is very linear, "I go, You go".

I'm working on a module for "Panzer Command", and frankly, I'm not sure if pbem will even be an option for it unless some house rules are enacted. This game uses a chit-pull system to randomly determine turn sequence and there's a bidding process as well where you can use direct commands to gain the inititiative for the turn. It's just going to be a lot of log shuffling it looks like.

 

[Arakis]

One big improvement would be the ability to replay the commulative history of the game, not just the last turn. I understand Cyberboard has that capability.
A better integration with email would also be nice to have. e.g. the ability to send the move from within the VASSAL client.
For some games, the ability to see the dragging action of a counter - therefore see the path it took would also help, though I'm sure that's much more complicated to implement. It can be worked around now by just walking the counter one hex at a time, but that's tedious.

If I'll think of something more I'll add later.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Yes, I like the thought of better integration with email for VASL.

For instance, a Menu Item such as:

'File | Send to | As attachment'

is fairly standard fare in other programs. Would make sense to have it here as well.

 

[Keith Todd]

......The way most boardgames were designed -- because of the way phases and turns work -- make PBEM cumbersome at best and unworkable at worst.

.....

This is a matter of opinion and preference. I prefer boardgames and relish that VASSAL provides a great interface for PBEM games that I would otherwise have to play solo. ASL is a prime example, not exactly "PBEM friendly" but very popular as many people want to play it regardless of its PBEM nuances.

IMHO

Keith

 

[GJK]

One big improvement would be the ability to replay the commulative history of the game, not just the last turn. I understand Cyberboard has that capability.

Agreed, that would be a nice feature to have, especially for sharing log files for AAR's or for others to "watch" your game.

A better integration with email would also be nice to have. e.g. the ability to send the move from within the VASSAL client.

I've given praise to it here before, but I use Fuerte's "Pbem Helper" to manage all of my pbem games, VASSAL and Combat Mission and other games. When a turn comes in, I just move the file to my pbem folder and Pbem Helper updates to remind me that I have a turn to play. After I play the turn, it has it's own email client that will send the turn - I don't have to look up the guys email address or look for his email to reply to- it stores the address and mails out the turn from within. It will also zip files if you want it to. Pretty spiffy utility, check it out HERE.

For some games, the ability to see the dragging action of a counter - therefore see the path it took would also help, though I'm sure that's much more complicated to implement. It can be worked around now by just walking the counter one hex at a time, but that's tedious.

There is the fairly new "movement trail" trait that you could add to a module that doesn't have it enabled. I would just add it to the prototype(s) for the counters and you can either turn it on by default or assign a keyboard shortcut to view it while your opponent moves his pieces.

 

[Dr Zaius]

This is a matter of opinion and preference. I prefer boardgames and relish that VASSAL provides a great interface for PBEM games that I would otherwise have to play solo. ASL is a prime example, not exactly "PBEM friendly" but very popular as many people want to play it regardless of its PBEM nuances.

It depends on your definition of "popular."

I think VASSAL is a very fine utility and I applaud the people who are behind it. My only point is that VASSAL is only half the equation, the other half being the game itself. I'm not saying VASSAL cannot continue to improve to make PBEM a bit more user-friendly, but in the end there is only so much it can do.

 

[Swampwallaby]

I think Don is just trying to say that some games have a play sequence that makes PBEM play very trying.

For example, a game where during an attack, either side has options to play 'combat' cards, or use special options that affect combat. What in one game is a roll the dice, see the outcome, becomes 4 emails going back and forwards.

 

[Dr Zaius]

For example, a game where during an attack, either side has options to play 'combat' cards, or use special options that affect combat. What in one game is a roll the dice, see the outcome, becomes 4 emails going back and forwards.

Exactly, that's all I'm saying. It's not that these are bad game designs or anything, but VASSAL can only do so much to streamline this.

I think were VASSAL excels is in live mode. It is now feasible to play larger scenarios or campaigns by saving at various points and resuming play at a later date. In the past, playing large boardgames like this was limited to people who had the luxury of a hobby room where a game table could remain undisturbed over a period of weeks or months.

 

[Ivan Rapkinov]

I tried playing BattleTech by PBEM - a movement and phase system akin to ASL - and it was horrible. Even in small games, using a Cyberboard like app, each turn would take about a week and a couple of dozen emails.

MegaMek has solved the play over long distance thing, but not the PBEM issue - the game itself is capable of doing so, but it's too slow.

The phase nature of the underlying game dictates the turnaround, not the app itself.

 

[danstudentvcc]

VASSL playability linked to ####.mod playability..

Though it's usually not a terribly difficult task, I always find that with new users of VASSAL ...

Or do you find that pbem with VASSAL works just fine and have had no problems helping new users to get going with recording and playing log files?

Hello.
I was reading in the ASL forums and came across a thread that pretty much highlights the advantages of having Vassal and it's mods become easier editing in nature to allow for even more diversity in the wargames themselves. It seems quite likely that improved editors will allow for more newbie to expert players. For ASL that would easily translate into more maps for HASL play as well as easier terrain maps for the newcomers.

http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=495971#post495971

A quick check of the Ladders for computer games shows that those with editors have the longest life spans and also the greatest number of aliases who play the games daily or weekly. This attraction would be most obvious to those aliases who enjoy the more advanced versions of their games - like the campaign versions that depend on consecutive battles.

Danstudentvcc

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I would also like the ability to click on a VASL log file, which would automatically load VASL. Essentially, registering a standard extension name to the VASL executable.

PS, it was nice meeting Rodney last weekend in Seattle.

 

[Swampwallaby]

I would also like the ability to click on a VASL log file, which would automatically load VASL. Essentially, registering a standard extension name to the VASL executable.

This should be no problem, it is on my list of things to do. Shoiuld be able to do it with the DOS FTYPE command.

 

[Ogreking]

Yes, I like the thought of better integration with email for VASL.

For instance, a Menu Item such as:

'File | Send to | As attachment'

is fairly standard fare in other programs. Would make sense to have it here as well.

I agree on this one.

I also join in the request to log/save an entire game for two reasons. First, it would help me to understand where the game left off and how we got where we are. Sometimes its days between play and I am lost. Second, and most importantly, I think more people would try different modules if they could pick up an entire game and watch it be played out. I own Up Front, but I've never been lucky enough to find someone to teach me live. I've tried watching some games on VASL and the guys have been great, but I hate to interfere by asking questions. Would be nice to watch the entire game and compare the rules at my own pace.

In fact, it would be nice to have a library of such games. I'd be willing to play a very detailed game of some of the games I know and be descriptive so that those watching later might learn a bit. I'm often surprised at how many of my friends say they don't want to play VASL game "X" with someone because they don't want to look like they are a rookie.

 

[GJK]

I agree on this one.

I also join in the request to log/save an entire game for two reasons. First, it would help me to understand where the game left off and how we got where we are. Sometimes its days between play and I am lost. Second, and most importantly, I think more people would try different modules if they could pick up an entire game and watch it be played out. I own Up Front, but I've never been lucky enough to find someone to teach me live. I've tried watching some games on VASL and the guys have been great, but I hate to interfere by asking questions. Would be nice to watch the entire game and compare the rules at my own pace.

In fact, it would be nice to have a library of such games. I'd be willing to play a very detailed game of some of the games I know and be descriptive so that those watching later might learn a bit. I'm often surprised at how many of my friends say they don't want to play VASL game "X" with someone because they don't want to look like they are a rookie.

These are some really good points and is more along the lines of what I was thinking when I raised the question. I too find at times that it takes me some time to reorintate myself to a game that has gone several days between playings. This used to be a major problem for me in VASL, but it's much better now that it has the turn track and phase marker (one of the reasons that I made an extension of it from a sample that Robin had drawn up for print). In fact (note to self) I need to start including similar types of markers/play aids for all of my modules.

In regards to the continuous logs, that would be a great thing to have - the ability to somehow combine logs for use as an instructional tool. I asked Adam Starkweather about doing something like this for Fire in the Sky and he agreed that it would be a neat thing to do/have and that he may consider making one for it and possibly for some of his other games that are in pre-order now. I know that it couldn't be done because it would be abused by cheaters, but if there was some way to unencrypt the log files so that you could manually splice them together even would be a neat thing to have.

By the way, I have mentioned that Pbem Helper really is a neat tool to use for managing pbem games (not only for VASSAL or Combat Mission, but most any pbem type of game)? I'd be lost without it. It has it's own sendmail client built in, so you send turns directly from it. The nice feature is the reminder it gives you about your turns - which do you need to play, which are you waiting on return files for, etc. Pretty neat, I'd highly recommend giving it a try.

 

[Swampwallaby]

In regards to the continuous logs, that would be a great thing to have - the ability to somehow combine logs for use as an instructional tool.

This feature has always been available in VASSAL:

1. Open Log file no. 1
2. Start a new log file called 'Whole game'
3. Step through log file no. 1 to the end (Use Page Down key to step fast)
4. Use the 'Load Continuation' menu option to open log file no. 2
5. Step through log file no. 2 to the end
6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 for each log file in sequence.
7. Close log file 'Whole Game'.

While not a fast process, it is certainly suitable for occasional use to create promotional/demonstration files for a game.

 

[GJK]

Yup, you're right of course Brent. I've actually done that with one of my VASL games. It definitely works, but with some issues:

1. As you mention, it's a slow process. If you have 100+ log files (that you'd get in a pbem game), then it's going to take a while.

2. The way we record logs in a pbem is the main problem. We often interrupt a log to interject our own moves, comments, etc. so you wind up getting several pieces of the same thing in the one combined log. For example:

log#001 has the movement phase of player A
log#002 starts the MPh of player A, then player B interjects some def. fire during the middle of it, then it continues with the move of player A.
log#003 starts the Mph (for the 3rd time now), has the def. fire, finishes his moves and then he starts his adv. fire phase.
log#004 has a question about something in the adv. fire phase, so the log begins with that (again) and then continues on.....

Makes following the game very difficult, plus counters/units get out of sync. If player A places a marker and then removes it, but player B interjects into the log and says "hey, you forgot to remove that marker" but he just hadn't gotten down that far in the log, that marker will "reappear" again.

Kids just got home from school, so I've got to cut this short - but that is the beginning of my response.

 

[Ogreking]

I guess what I meant was something that was very easy to use to creat an entire logfile for a game. That would be a very nice featue to have when trying to learn a new game with Vassal.

I know VASL can do far more than I'll ever understand... but it has to be easily useable by those like me who are not able to mod files in order to be commonly used. Something we would all like to see.