What was your "moment?"

[hongkongwargamer]

Interestingly, one of my moments was against Carl, shit, 25 odd years ago. My first FtF game at the Olde BAASL stomping grounds at Bob Walden's house in historic Wayland MA. We played A Stiff Fight and Carl gave me what remains one of my most treasured compliments: "for someone who's only played solitaire, you know the rules really well and are one heck of a player"
My ASL life has taken some turns, some sabbaticals, some periods of indifference...but I always wander back to the fold. Forty years of countless moments...the pull of this amazing system always draws me back.

You are a way better man than me. He never said it but I bet my last Sniper counter that on several occasions he almost blurted out saying that I am dumb as a post!

 

[BattleSchool]

Mmmm, nice writing, but...

I'd stop you there, but...

Has anyone else done anything similar?

You miss the point. It's about making a lasting mark on the hobby, something for others to aspire to, not replicate.

I see the Flames of War stuff at the Sentry Box and think they've probably been as extensive as far as breadth of coverage vis a vis nationalities, but nothing like the ASLRB.

I looked at my Flames of War box yesterday and thought, why do I still have it? I never play it. But I recognize that it is an iconic game on a remarkable trajectory of contemporary wargaming that began with AH's Tactics II.

I flat out disagree that it is an "indelible mark on the gaming scene."

I see now that I failed to qualify that. Or maybe the word "war" got deleted during the autocorrect. Dunno. In any case, I meant to say that is has left an indelible mark on wargaming.

Rules for many recent wargames arguably are better written than they were 40 years ago. They tend to have more examples of play, including colour illustrations. Formatting has improved, colour play aids are more common, and rules are more search friendly. The ASLRB set a high standard.

Wargaming is a niche hobby. I would be surprised to learn that most wargame designers of the past 30 years are unfamiliar with the big orange book.

but I can't ever see it being a model for something similar.

Nor should it be. Wargame designers can nevertheless draw inspiration from a precedent-setting rule book as they take wargaming somewhere unprecedented.

More like a colossal accident - it built on those four original rulebooks, and then kept a hold on all of us here, but I doubt it could ever be repeated. Moreover, no one else has even wanted to try.

The new testament wasn't a colossal accident. ASL took SL from cult status to organized wargaming religion.

It was a deliberately ambitious undertaking. Apart from important changes to the rules, especially DFF, the TOC laid out the future of the system. Streets of Fire, Red Barricades, West of Alamein, and Code of Bushido were unknowables when I opened the good book in '86. Placeholder chapter headings held out promise of great(er) things to come. My conversion was instant.

And on that note, I'll leave this thread to those who have yet to share their ah-ha moments.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You miss the point. It's about making a lasting mark on the hobby, something for others to aspire to, not replicate.

I understand your point completely. I disagree with your point. What would the purpose be of aspiring to something, if you don't want to replicate it?

Aspire
verb
verb: aspire; 3rd person present: aspires; past tense: aspired; past participle: aspired; gerund or present participle: aspiring

1. direct one's hopes or ambitions toward achieving something.
   "we never thought that we might aspire to those heights"

Maybe you meant to use a different word?

I see now that I failed to qualify that. Or maybe the word "war" got deleted during the autocorrect. Dunno. In any case, I meant to say that is has left an indelible mark on wargaming.

Rules for many recent wargames arguably are better written than they were 40 years ago. They tend to have more examples of play, including colour illustrations. Formatting has improved, colour play aids are more common, and rules are more search friendly. The ASLRB set a high standard.

Okay, that's a useful clarification. We mentioned Flames of War - the rulebooks are certainly high quality. Is this really because of ASL? Put another way, if ASL never existed, why do we think wargame publishers would have just ignored the obvious technical advances in the publishing industry?

Wargaming is a niche hobby. I would be surprised to learn that most wargame designers of the past 30 years are unfamiliar with the big orange book.

I agree completely with this, but in just as many cases - maybe more - that is being infamous, not famous. The youngsters I hang out with in the local reenactment society all play Bolt Action miniatures. When I mention ASL to them, most have no interest. One fellow did buy the ASLSK, but we haven't had a chance to sit down together. The common response to ASL is that they recognize it, but can't believe anyone plays it. Like that 1000 page book on Kursk that came out. I admit to snapping up a copy in a misplaced fit of machismo. If I actually sat down and read it, I expect I might be the first....

Nor should it be. Wargame designers can nevertheless draw inspiration from a precedent-setting rule book as they take wargaming somewhere unprecedented.

So what unprecedented things have wargamers come up with as a result of their experience with, or knowledge of, ASL?

You could just as easily say that ASL was "inspired" by Campaign for North Africa because they are both highly detailed. But that's really just a coincidence.

The new testament wasn't a colossal accident. ASL took the SL from cult status to wargaming religion.

I see religion defined as "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." Outside of the fanatics actually playing the game, and a few vendors who make money selling it, who is ascribing it supreme importance? Jon Peterson's history of gaming never mentioned it. Dunnigan never mentioned it in his books. I have both the 2nd and 3rd editions of Wargames Handbook. It's not in there. He actually mentions "Platoon" as being historically significant for its movie tie-in. I think that says a lot - he gives a run down of the history of wargaming, and discusses 'how to' design them. Nowhere does he recommend emulating ASL. It's not even on his radar - but a movie-tie in rip off of Stratego is.

It was a deliberately ambitious undertaking.

No argument from me there. And it succeeded. It's lightning in a bottle. But I think you over-estimate severely the positive impact it has had on other designers. On the other hand, just about all the other comparable games/systems that have arisen in the last few years - Lock N Load, Old School Tactical, Band of Brothers, Fighting Formations, Valor and Victory - usually begin their marketing with "it's easier than ASL."

Now, if that's what you mean by an indelible mark - that's it is something others aspire not to be, then I agree.

I'm not saying no one should be passionate about ASL. But one can do so and still be honest about what it is - something challenging with a long pedigree that no one else is really interested in copying because honestly, you couldn't do it without the captive audience ASL enjoyed in 1985. This thread is only further proof of it - the acolytes, to use your analogy, mostly came of age during genesis.

 

[Sparky]

interesting thread to read. I must be the babe of the SL playing generation. Unlike most it seems I wasn't immediately hooked by SL.

Then againI was all of 10 years old when I first played it.

Oh it was fun and enjoyed it as I did wargaming in general. A lot of fond memories associated with it and the time i spent with my father. However perhaps there was a bit of pleasing dad with it who wanted to, and surely did, pass on his love of boardgaming. It didn't became a passion yet though. As the 80's came I discovered D&D (and other more destructive and expensive vices haha)and that became my passion and thus went off a 10 year binge with that through the 80's and rarely gave a 2nd thought to SL or to ASL.

After I returned to college after the Gulf War I was checking out a hobby store looking the latest D&D goodies and I saw Red Barricades and got that along with the RB, and core modules and THAT is what finally hooked me into the game.

 

[tripvm]

Brief background. I played and loved the SL,COI,COD games in the earlier 1980s. I would say GI too, but I find that my copy of GI (yep still have it) is largely unpunched. So, I must not have played that much GI. In college my group of gaming buddies had a very low regard for AH generally and SL particularly. So, when ASL came out I was focused in other directions. My wargaming during the 1990s and 2000s was all over the place but not ASL. Although when MMP acquired The Gamers ASL moved back on my radar screen. Finally, about 10 years ago I started buying ASL stuff including the SKs. After a couple of false starts, I finally made a real effort to learn ASL in 2019. That sets the stage.

I was on a business trip stuck in a hotel on a Friday night. I had brought ASLSK#2 with me on a lark because it was small and self-contained. Feeling kind of down and missing home and family, I broke out a short scenario. Two hours later I was in much better mood as I was totally absorbed and talking to myself as I soloed the scenario (S9). The American attack had broken down due to some incredible shooting from Italian MGs and apparently fragile American 1st line squads who could not buy a MC roll. That did it. Since then I have only been playing ASL as the rest of my game collection gathers (more) dust.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Is that European for covfefe?

You trumped me.

 

[jrv]

…I was totally absorbed and talking to myself…

A pleasant reminiscence takes a dark turn.

JR

 

[Yuri0352]

Streets of Fire, Red Barricades, West of Alamein, and Code of Bushido were unknowables when I opened the good book in '86. Placeholder chapter headings held out promise of great(er) things to come.

This is exactly the reason why I never became bored with ASL... the promise of things to come. The possibility that I might be able to one day 'command' the 8th Army forces in North Africa or my beloved Jarheads in the pacific. When I read the first rumors of a Korea module coming to fruition, I was excited for the possibility that ASL could expand beyond the Second World War. In that same spirit of optimism, I am hoping to one day see official modules and rules for the Arab-Israeli conflicts and the Vietnam War.

 

[g_young]

[QUOTE="Michael Dorosh, post: 2005035, member: 315
It's lightning in a bottle. But I think you over-estimate severely the positive impact it has had on other designers. On the other hand, just about all the other comparable games/systems that have arisen in the last few years - Lock N Load, Old School Tactical, Band of Brothers, Fighting Formations, Valor and Victory - usually begin their marketing with "it's easier than ASL."

Now, if that's what you mean by an indelible mark - that's it is something others aspire not to be, then I agree.

I'm not saying no one should be passionate about ASL. But one can do so and still be honest about what it is - something challenging with a long pedigree that no one else is really interested in copying because honestly, you couldn't do it without the captive audience ASL enjoyed in 1985. This thread is only further proof of it - the acolytes, to use your analogy, mostly came of age during genesis.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting discussion Michael. I'm tending more to the positive aspects of ASL's influence. With that in mind, what do you make of LnL going to a consolidated rule book, (275 pages, purportedly half given to Ex of Play), full colour, tabled contents, indexed, colour coding of rules, and bullet pointed? My guess is that they took the gold standard system (ie ASL) and put their own spin on it - a maturing system needs an all encompassing one stop reference. When they released this not so long ago I thought, where have I seen this before?

I'm of the impression (due to not having played any of them) that the games you've listed aspire to replicate the intense narrative experience we all enjoy through ASL, but as you note, marketed as being of lower rules overhead. Whether they succeed in recreating that atmosphere I again can only guess at - but nonetheless, there they are trying to replicate the same success.

I don't get about with gamers much - I've known 5 others over a 20yr period. Three were outside of ASL, with 2 of these being exclusively euro gamers. All 3, once they knew I played wanted to experience 'it'; they'd heard so much and were all massively curious (in a positive light) as to whether it would live up to its reputation (ie pinnacle tactical).You can dismiss this as being hardly a sample, and I'd agree, but I can only go by my experience.

 

[CTKnudsen]

What hooked me was the RB CG Replay article in the '91 Annual. I was working at a gaming shop in Saskatoon, and I remember leafing thru a copy on a quiet Thursday evening. I had looked at the RB box and thought it looked cool, but the article's description of the ebbs and flows of the campaign, and the sheer level of detail that seemed to be available (fortified locations? Sewer Movement?!?) really got me pumped. Coincidentally, soon after a fellow brought his set in for sale on consignment, and I jumped at the chance to get the set and a copy of RB for under $200, which was a lot of money for a high-school kid! So that got me in the door. But there were 2 things that combined to make ASL the one game I kept through 20 years of not gaming.

First the massive amount of strategic flexibility that the ruleset gave to both attack and defence within the CG. And we were playing it totally wrong, too, what we were playing was essentially equivalent to Starter Kit, but with upper levels and some of the bells and whistles. Still, for all that, there were so many options as to how you could pull off assaults, or stymie the same, and I loved (and still do!) the narrative aspect of the CG.

Second was the Heat of Battle and Sniper rules. I think the first time I created an heroic 10-3, only to lose him about three rolls later to a sniper, was magical - what a story!

I now regret stepping away, not only from ASL but from gaming in general, but I'm really glad I kept my stuff, and I'm really glad I got back in.

 

[dlazov]

I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

"A shot disturbs the eerie silence of a deserted city street, punctuated by the frantic footfalls of men seeking cover. One of Kruger's last veteran nco's lies motionless in the street. The remnants of the dead man's squad are nowhere to be seen - scattered in nearby houses and gutters - all thoughts of the advance abandoned with the sudden demise of their leader...the compulsion for revenge obviously overcome by their instinct for self preservation. Off to the right, Kruger's own men have located the source of the lethal shot and are laying down a steady stream of fire on the church steeple directly ahead. The absence of responding fire suggests that the lone Russian marksman has beat a hasty retreat or been victimized by the withering fire of the German retort. Kruger has seen enough. He is to occupy the church and set up a regimental observation post at once. His orders leave no leeway for delays by a single sniper. He gives the signal to rush the building. Obedient to their training, his men, veterans of France, the Balkans, and 18 months of fighting in Russia, spring to their feet. Seconds later the sharp, staccato retort of a Russian machine gun concludes with the assertiveness of death itself that this time Kruger was wrong..."

This is Squad Leader..."

I have never been the same since that fateful summer day at the ripe old age of 12 but alas the price sticker was $12.50, I had to wait one whole month while I earned my next $10 to purchase that game, praying that it would still be there when I got back. It was. And the rest as they say is history.

 

[jfardette]

For me it started in high school. I was playing war games but intimidated by Squad Leader. Then I got sick and knew I’d be out of school for a week. If I was ever going to tackle Squad Leader, this was the time. So I called up my best friend, stuck some money in his hand and sent him off to the game store at the mall... and so it began.

Ran into a lull during college but picked up Beyond Valor when I was over in Korea (army) years later. Tried to figure it out on my own, failed. Pushed counters around but didn’t really learn to play until I was in Germany a decade later and met a fellow in Frankfurt who got me over the hump. We played for a year but drifted on. Then a friend showed up with Red Barricades. We still didn’t really know what we were doing but we were evenly matched and played the full campaign. Haven’t looked back.

 

[Ray Woloszyn]

Cross of Iron sealed the deal. Before that an armored counter was a generic regiment or division but now you had the actual vehicles and their own specific characteristics fighting against each other. It was mind blowing and I was hooked.

You are a fellow traveler. Out of the Army in '76 I did buy Squad Leader but it was not until COI in 1978 that it lit a fire under this former Panzerblitz player. At my first con, Origins in '79 at Widener University, I played in my first SL tournament losing to none other than Bob McNamara in the first round (Delaying Action). There is a picture of us playing that game on the cover of an old "Moves" magazine that featured Origins. The rest is non-important history.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

There is a picture of us playing that game on the cover of an old "Moves" magazine that featured Origins.

This one?

 

[Ray Woloszyn]

This one?

View attachment 11856

I will check my collection, it might have been just after or before the one you show. I do not think it was S&T. Ray

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I will check my collection, it might have been just after or before the one you show. I do not think it was S&T. Ray

If it helps, all the covers are shown on my website -

MOVES http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/moves/moves.htm

F&M http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/firemovement/firemovement.htm

S&T http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/strategytactics/strategytactics.htm

Others: http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/magazines.htm

Regardless, very neat that you have that connection to some of the "originals."

 

[Ray Woloszyn]

If it helps, all the covers are shown on my website -

MOVES http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/moves/moves.htm

F&M http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/firemovement/firemovement.htm

S&T http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/strategytactics/strategytactics.htm

Others: http://tacticalwargamer.com/magazines/magazines.htm

Regardless, very neat that you have that connection to some of the "originals."

Very helpful. I did not need to dig through all my banker files of magazines which today serve as extra wall insulation off my hobby room. Voici, "Moves" 46 BATTLERS pic second group of players, I am to the right, my hands as usual when nervous on my shoulder, Bob opposite me with the proverbial beard. SL box in the foreground. The closest I will come to my "fifteen minutes of fame".

 

[Bad Dice]

There was never any doubt that I would pick up ASL. I started with Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader. I got Tobruk after that. Taking up Squad Leader was about as natural as breathing, same for ASL.


BD

 

[ibncalb]

My dad was a big wargamer.

It never appealed to me.

In my very early twenties I was seeing a girl from Seattle.

It was difficult to communicate with her. She was deaf as a post. Anyway, that Christmas my old man, obviously fishing for ideas for a Christmas present, asked me what I was interested in.

I must have mentioned ASL.

On Christmas day I received quite a shock when I opened my present.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My dad was a big wargamer.

It never appealed to me.

In my very early twenties I was seeing a girl from Seattle.

It was difficult to communicate with her. She was deaf as a post. Anyway, that Christmas my old man, obviously fishing for ideas for a Christmas present, asked me what I was interested in.

I must have mentioned ASL.

On Christmas day I received quite a shock when I opened my present.

The Braille version of the ASLRB?