What was your Favorite Monstergame--and Why?

[ericmwalters]

I'd seen people list monstergames in a number of other forums and thought I'd start a thread on it. I'm a recovering monstergame addict. Don't ask me to define what a monstergame is...you know it when you see it. There are some "small" games that tended to be monsters (West End's KILLER ANGELS was a good example of a small game that went forever)...and some big ones that you could finish in a day (SPI's OPERATION TYPHOON did that when the bad weather set in early).

So here are my favorites, in rank order. I won't say my rankings are any better than anyone else's and I am very aware of the shortcomings of the games in question. But there it is.

#1. HISTORICAL ADVANCED SQUAD LEADER--RED BARRICADES. The Battle for the Barrikady Ordnance Factory in Stalingrad at the squad level. The big campaign game, covering nearly a month of fighting. Ahhh...the others on the Bulge, Tarawa, Arnhem, Guadalcanal, etc., just can't compare to this one...but I love them all more than any other Monster. Gotta be an ASL player to enjoy it, though--which is an investment in time and money that blows just about anything else out of the water.

#2. KORSUN POCKET, People's Wargames. There is no other game that shows the formation and breakout of a pocket in such rich detail. The map is incredible and the wide variety of units coupled with a moderately complex system makes this one a winner. Very exciting for both sides as they race against each other (and the clock). This is the best version of the WACHT AM RHEIN derivative system I'd seen. Scheduled for a 2nd Edition release by L2 design.

#3 HIGHWAY TO THE REICH, 2nd Edition, Simulations Publications, Incorporated (SPI). The map details, counter detail, color, and tactical system was--quite simply--incredible. The overall campaign game was seriously flawed in terms of balance, but who cared? I never pass up an opportunity to play this beast, despite the XXX Corps counter density and my frustrations with the situation, particularly around the 82nd Airborne Division area vicinity Nijmegen. Would love to see this redone and republished--Decision Games has been talking about it. We'll see.

#4 GMT's EASTERN FRONT SERIES. Relatively uncomplicated game system but beautifully detailed maps and OOB richness. You can't help but be hooked. I dream of hooking all the games in the series together and play all of BARBAROSSA to the regimental/division level. I'd seen that at MONSTERGAME.CON in Tempe and marvelled...and the game OPERATION TYPHOON is the best one on the topic that I've played (and I've played almost all of them!)

#5 OPERATION COMBAT SERIES (OCS), The Gamers/MMP. The ultimate operational scale system series. Play the Russian Front (GUDERIAN'S BLITZKRIEG II, ENEMY AT THE GATES, HUBE'S POCKET), Africa (TUNISIA), the Med (SICILY), the Pacific (BURMA)...even Cold War (THE FORGOTTEN WAR: KOREA). Each is a very different playing experience. But be ready to deal with thinking about logistics as it's the engine behind the system--and does it elegantly. This is the best system for the scale I've yet seen.

#6 REGIMENTAL SUB-SYSTEM/CIVIL WAR BRIGADE SERIES (RSS). The Gamers/MMP. These games have the detail you love in other systems such as the TSS/GBACW, but shine more in terms of how screwed up command can get. All those absurd things you read about in Civil War battle narratives seem to happen in these games, thus their appeal.

#7 TACTICAL COMBAT SYSTEM (TCS) The Gamers/MMP. I started with their first game, BLOODY 110, which was a monster if ever there was one. While I've got the four-map game OMAHA BEACH, I've never gotten to it! This system does for modern WW II tactical combat what RSS did for Civil War combat. Lots of crazy things keep happening. Most importantly, you get real insight into the impact of command and C2 "speed" than in any other game system I know.

#7 EUROPA series. (GDW/GRD). This is an obsession more than a game system. The system itself is pretty creaky, despite the layers of detail piled on and the oodles of "ants" (specialist pieces/units) in the OOB. What I like best is the air system and the way armor effectiveness is calculated. Not tried the GLORY Pacific War derivatives nor the WW I games, but they make me salivate....

#8 LA BATTAILLE series (Martial Enterprises/GDW/Clash of Arms). Who can forget when the first game on Borodino came out--it was the birth of Monstergaming! Best part of these games is the color...the system is a bit Francophilic and the command and control routines could use an update. But there's really not much in the way of competition...and some really neat battles are covered (Corunna being a favorite!).

#9 BATTLES OF THE AGE OF REASON (Clash of Arms) Does for eighteenth century warfare what the LA BATTAILLE series does for Napoloenics. And does it far better. Takes quite a bit of time to learn and master (those march/turning charts are second nature to military types because we understand how drill works!). I hope there are a lot more games coming out in this series--I'll buy every one of them whether I get to play them or not. They're that good. Check them out.

#10 STREETS OF STALINGRAD, 3rd Ed (L2 Design). Probably the most beautiful monstergame ever produced...and pays the most loving attention to military history. Dripping with color, research, care and attention to detail. The system has been criticized for being too simplistic for the game situation modeled, but I'm not one who is among the critics. Released in a 3rd Edition by L2, it's a stunner. I have the previous two editios and can tell you it's by far the best. It's expensive...and worth every penny.

Here's my gripes about other games that folks have mentioned so you'll know why they're not among my top 10 favorites:

CAMPAIGN FOR NORTH AFRICA. Just too cumbersome. Think someone somewhere said CNA (or "Lust in the Dust") was bound to be more admired than played. I've got DAK by the Gamers, but haven't gotten into it.

ATLANTIC WALL (SPI). A dog. The map sucks, the situation is too tough on the Germans to make fun--give me LONGEST DAY anytime. But even THE LONGEST DAY (AH) loses it's flavor after a while....

WAR IN EUROPE (SPI). I love the scenarios. I don't like the campaign game. The new Decision Game edition is much better than the original, but I'm not sure I'll ever play the long game again. Just feels too "vanilla" compared to Europa and others.

WORLD IN FLAMES . I know, I'm speaking heresy. I started with the 3nd Edition and just got drowned in all the updates/color (PLANES IN FLAMES, SHIPS IN FLAMES, etc). The system seemed simply too attritional, anyway).

DESCENT ON CRETE (SPI). So static for most the game--a real yawner. The clutter on the map is too much as well...always messed the board up.

GETTYSBURG 77 (AH). Unplayable advanced game. If the map was twice as big (at least), I could perhaps have handled it. Physical components weren't as big as the system was.

WACHT AM RHEIN (SPI). I really wanted to like this one. But there was too much wrong with it. The map felt like it needed more detail (check out HITLER'S LAST GAMBLE for an alternative, although that game was way flawed)...there were little house rules you had to keep coming up with...sigh. KORSUN POCKET had such a better system. Decision Games says it's going to update this game--I for one cannot wait. Think it will be done "right" this time and I'll dive into it.

WAR IN THE PACIFIC (SPI). This is another one I want to love so bad I can taste it. The logistics systems are well done and I like them. The land combat system was okay. The naval system has some flaws, but I played the scenarios anyway. Can't imagine what the campaign game would be like. Haven't played Mark Herman's PACIFIC WAR, which I think I'd like better than this game. But I always drag this one out and fondle the counters...dreaming of a better game. I'll tell you one thing, though--this one has none of the "vanilla" feel you get from WAR IN EUROPE!

Games which might have made my top ten but I've not played them enough:

WELLINGTON'S VICTORY/NEY VERSUS WELLINGTON (SPI)
OPERATION CRUSADER (GDW)
THE COSSACKS ARE COMING (PWG)/HOME BEFORE THE LEAVES FALL (COA)
VIETNAM (VG)

Okay, let's hear it from you--what are your favorite monstergames?\

--emw

 

[trauth116]

darn it - your posts are so good -and if I had time to reply the way they really required - ...well it would be great.

I played a lot of War in Europe when I was in High School -- solitaire... other ones seeing significant playtime were Terrible Swift Sword (eventually both first and second versions),


-edited- the why is because it offered something proised by the Europa series - but even as of now -still undelivered -- it offered the entire WWII in Europe at a scale that was more complex than 3rd Reich - and even fairly generic -was still better than nothing -- I mist have tried every possible situation in that thing

Fire in the East, Scorched Earth, and when they added Urals -I was in heaven --never played more than through about September - but where else could you find a map that big -- I have all 4 of GMTs EF games - but have not had and/or taken the time to learn them, aside from reading the intro rules - and that game looks impressive.


I Liked SPI's Operation Typhoon - because of the system hiding the strengths and making them somewhat variable.


I really liked The Longest Day as well - but got therapy by playing Normandy 44 ... which is about the coolest aspect - a monster game is not so monterous on the computer.

 

[moondog]

My Favorite Monster Games.......hmmm...

#1 The Longest Day by Avalon Hill: Mounted Maps, Small Rule Book (easy to understand), Tons of Units (using the German unit icons devised in WWII was ingenius), Multi-player capability out the Wazoo! The learning curve on this game and the ease of play were awesome! Myself and 4 other guys played for 2 weeks straight from 11am til 1am and still didn't finish it.....but damn did we have fun.

#2 Terrible Swift Sword by SPI: I really like the way the maps looked....easy to understand, Decent sized rule book, Tons of Units (made me feel like I was there), Again easily turned into a Multi-player game and that made it even more fun. 6 of us played it over the weekend and I was the Reb lucky enough to have Heth's Division (the first division on the board) I tried to ram my way through Buford's Cavalry....big mistake.

#3 The rest of the TSS series by SPI; Bloody April, A Gleam of Bayonets, Jackson at the Crossroads (2 smaller games in one box), Kernstown (small game from S & T magazine) The reason these make the list is because they were as good as #2 and once you learned one of them, you could play ANY of the others.

#4 Wellington's Victory by SPI: 4 really cool looking maps...again...easy to understand, decent sized rule book (easy to understand), Tons of units and all those cool colors, Again an easy game to play Multi-player for even more fun. I got to command Jerome's Division and like a fool....did what he did, tried to storm Hougomont and wasted my division. (Are you sensing a pattern here?) This game also inspired a game from S & T Magazine called Quatre Bras

#5 Wooden Ships and Iron Men by Avalon Hill: Not sure that this counts.....but the Battle of Trafalgar was a monster battle and took a long time to play out. I love those counters, and the ease of play and how accurate it seemed to be.

#6 Carries at War by Avalon Hill??? 5 or 6 of us played this one once......and while it had great looking maps and counters, the ease of play was lacking.

One that I had that I never played was by SPI and it had 9 LARGE maps of Europe.....but I'm not sure if it was called 1914 or World War I.....but that's what it dealt with was WWI.

I've heard of soooo many others....the Europe Series and how they all could be hooked together was truly inspiring....but out of my budget at the time.

well that's it for me. I still have The Longest Day....just no time and no opponents.

dog

 

[Tom DeFranco]

I have several favorite systems/games, most of which I'd played over the last year or two.

1) This Terrible Sound/RSS/The Gamers/rel'd 2000. Played this game about Chickamauga with Dave Powell (the game's and system's designer) and another friend, Dan Cicero. As I mentioned in earlier posts in other threads, Dave gave Dan and me property on map F. Dave had the Confederates and Dan and I had the Union forces. Dave beat us. One of the highlights was in a random event, sending NB Forrest to cool his heels at my plantation. Also, having Dave there sped up combat resolution considerably as he knows the charts cold. It was to this date a game that sticks in my memory utmost. PS - I also led an ill considered charge against Dave. I know now how NOT to conduct a charge. The hard part is getting the charge done right.

2) Gaines Mill/Seven Pines/Malvern Hill 7 Days trilogy/CWB/The Gamers/rel'd 1997, 1998 and 1999. Played the whole Seven Days with several friends some of whom are basically minis players. Some of the minis players grasping the idea that there is strategy as well as tactics involved and he commanded V Corps. We lost V Corps the following week of play because he had been unable to get them orders to move quickly enough and the Rebel players sent Jackson around Porter's eastern flank. Another minis player was aggravated because he could not get his corps moving in time either. In hindsight, we should have taught these guys some of the nuances of the command problems in separate smaller games of the series first. One of the minis players (the guy commanding V Corps) actually liked the system enough that he bought all remaining available games in the system. We will get to playing the full Seven Days again, but not until we play A Fearful Slaughter first.

3) This Hallowed Ground/RSS/The Gamers/rel'd 1998. Started this one last July. Another great time. My buddy commanding I Corps was rusty with the system's tactics and left the Corps wagons left to dry. Several units in I Corps are sitting on Culp's Hill in low or no ammo status waiting for army wagons, just coming up. Buford, for lack of dice rolling ability on my part, just doesn't want an active part in protecting the AotP's left flank on Cemetery Ridge. III Corps is just coming up Taneytown Rd and will be poised to hit the Confederates hitting Cemetery Ridge, and I managed to reroute the one errant division of XII Corps so that it will protect the right flank and allow I Corps the opportunity to get their badly needed ammo.

4) Brandywine and Germantown/BAR/COAG/rel'd 2002. Dan Cicero and I managed to get through a whole game of Brandywine. Dan had the Brits and I had the "Rustics". After pushing off the American contingent off the hill west of the Creek. Dan thought that he would push the Lobsterbacks across Chadd's Ford and sweep me from the field even before Cornwallis would arrive on my northern flank. An early assault against a contingent of Americans led by Dave Powell proved fruitful for Dan. This may have led him to a foolhardy assault against dugin Americans supporting Proctor's guns. Dan learned at Brandywine what Howe, Gage and Burgoyne - do not assault dugin Americans. He had problems, though, because I dugin so as to back up part of his column still on the west side of the Brandywine Creek. I made sure that between the terrain and my troops, Dan was hemmed in w/o much maneuver room. While he was butting his head against the fortified Rebels another brigade was attacking the center of his column. This system is becoming one of our favorites and is the system that La Batt should have been. Played between late winter/late spring of last year.

 

[ericmwalters]

Reminscing Monstergames

On LONGEST DAY: That German symbology was great--but not the first monstergame to have done it. That honor belongs to STREETS OF STALINGRAD--and it had German symbology for the Germans and Soviet symbology for the Russians. The counter colors matched the color of the uniforms as well. And the map...omigod...the map... But LONGEST DAY was an impressive game and I too enjoyed the fact that it didn't take forever to learn how to play. But again, you had to use nearly all the pro-German variables to give them a chance.

ON SPI'S TYPHOON: I too loved that system, which appears to be making a comeback of sorts--see New England Publications' KILLING GROUND and Pacific Rim's IRON TIDE. We'd seen this system used in SPI's "old" SICILY game, PATTON'S THIRD ARMY, OPERATION GRENADE, etc. But for some reason the system did not catch on. I like it a lot and am glad it's making a comeback. For those that don't know how it works, each unit gets a letter combat rating--for each combat, you blindly pick a chit and go with the combat value corresponding with the letter for the counter. That way you don't waste a lot of time trying to chase "optimal odds" attacks--you just play!

Played the WAR IN THE EAST campaign game once and the entire WAR IN EUROPE campaign game. The system shined for operational combat and production but didn't fare so well for air, naval, and strategic level conflict. I ended up playing a lot of THIRD REICH instead (and a little WORLD IN FLAMES until that got to be too much!).

--emw

 

[Gepard]

Favorites

1. War in Europe - I loved playing this game, but always thought the Russian were a bit too weak.

2. Terrible Swift Sword.

3. La Battaile games.

I've always had this dream of renting a huge space when I retire and setting up Grand Europa. To play that whole game through to the bitter end would be a lifetime grognard achievement.

 

[chrisvalla]

GDW's WWIII series was 'easy' compared to those listed. I'm thinking of the Europa and Flames series myself since those are the only two 'monstergames' I've ever played.

 

[hogdriver]

Favorite Monster Game

only had one, and it was my favorite game overall, SPI's The Next War. three 18"x24" maps, plus two map extensions, about 6" x 9"

 

[trauth116]

OK Hogdriver - I did this in another thread -- but -- when talking about Monster games -- size does matter - so with that in mind -- the 3 main mapsheets of Next War are 22 x 34 inches --- standard fold out size for SPI games ...

Oh -- and for me -- counters -- the more the better ... yeh -- nothing like FITE/SE ... I even was anal enough to set up using unit designations -and found I had lost -1 stinking piece -- out of like 5000

 

[PanzerElite]

I am a real big fan of the "Victory in the West" system; which includes SPI Typhoon, Patton's 3rd Army, Iron Tide, and The Killing Ground. I will be picking up Operation Grenade shortly..Does anyone remember the actual name ofSPI Sicily game that someone pointed out? I hadn''t heard of that one...

 

[trauth116]

According to my search - I don't actually have this game - but was aware of it ...

It is actually called just Sicily . And was in S & T 89. I guess it might have had the subtitle

Sicily: Race to Messina.

Good Luck in your search for it... looks available -but with SPI stuff - nothing is automatic

 

[ericmwalters]

MMP/Gamers Republishes DAK as DAK II

Just got my copy of DAK in the mail yesterday. I expected a straight reprint, but it was actually a revision. The map and counters haven't seen much change, but the rules are updated to OCS 3.1 standards. All the errata/clarifications are built in. All in all, if you missed this game the first time out, you've got a chance to acquire it now in an even better form.

I never got to play my copy of the original DAK, but always talked to the guys playing it at MONSTER.CON at Tempe...and marvelled. Maybe someday I'll get a crack at it.

Folks I know that have played it really like it. The OCS engine apparently shines best in this game.

--emw

 

[Gepard]

Monster Games

They asked about favorite Monster Games. I've actually played quite a few big games over time.

I played a lot of World in Flames. If you didn't add too many of the add-ons, this game was very playable by two people. However, I absolutely hated the new maps in the latest version. They went from something that was clean and looked pretty neat to one of the ugliest maps I've ever seen.

That lead to playing Krieg. Krieg was an absolute blast to play. We played Krieg a bunch of different times and the outcome always seemed to be in doubt to the last minute. I have a copy of Totaller Krieg, but didn't get a chance to play it.

We also played the Great Battles of the Civil War simulation of Antietam. I can't remember the exact name. However, I hated that one. Had rules to make you just as lame as McClellen.

We also played Wacht em Rhein quite a bit. I loved that system, but really shows what a desperate gamble the whole Battle of the Bulge was for the Germans. We allowed the Germans free set up and made the Americans use the historical setup. I could pretty much stop the German's offensive at the same point everytime. Fun game to play, but tough for the Germans to win.

We played Highway to the Reich, but the guy running the game screwed up. He gave the Allies to set up their entire army on Turn 1. The Germans were a bit lite, but also did quite well in hammering the airborne.

We also played Wellington's Victory. I hate that system. You basically lost morale by putting out your skirminishers. I thought that was stupid and very ahistorical.

I have copies of Atlantic Wall and War in the Pacific. Never got a chance to play them. I have copies of some of the Europa series. I've played a little Europa and always wanted to try more.

I love the monster games and having teams of players. We use to have 8-10 man teams for playing War in Europe. Those were social occasions as well as great simulations.

I miss those days of playing the same game for months at a time. Let's all retire to the same community in Florida. We can set up storefront business to let us play games 40 hours a week.

 

[Tom DeFranco]

Re: Monster Games

Originally posted by Gepard
They asked about favorite Monster Games. I've actually played quite a few big games over time.

I played a lot of World in Flames. If you didn't add too many of the add-ons, this game was very playable by two people. However, I absolutely hated the new maps in the latest version. They went from something that was clean and looked pretty neat to one of the ugliest maps I've ever seen.

That lead to playing Krieg. Krieg was an absolute blast to play. We played Krieg a bunch of different times and the outcome always seemed to be in doubt to the last minute. I have a copy of Totaller Krieg, but didn't get a chance to play it.

We also played the Great Battles of the Civil War simulation of Antietam. I can't remember the exact name. However, I hated that one. Had rules to make you just as lame as McClellen.

We also played Wacht em Rhein quite a bit. I loved that system, but really shows what a desperate gamble the whole Battle of the Bulge was for the Germans. We allowed the Germans free set up and made the Americans use the historical setup. I could pretty much stop the German's offensive at the same point everytime. Fun game to play, but tough for the Germans to win.

We played Highway to the Reich, but the guy running the game screwed up. He gave the Allies to set up their entire army on Turn 1. The Germans were a bit lite, but also did quite well in hammering the airborne.

We also played Wellington's Victory. I hate that system. You basically lost morale by putting out your skirminishers. I thought that was stupid and very ahistorical.

I have copies of Atlantic Wall and War in the Pacific. Never got a chance to play them. I have copies of some of the Europa series. I've played a little Europa and always wanted to try more.

I love the monster games and having teams of players. We use to have 8-10 man teams for playing War in Europe. Those were social occasions as well as great simulations.

I miss those days of playing the same game for months at a time. Let's all retire to the same community in Florida. We can set up storefront business to let us play games 40 hours a week.

Gepard, Isn't that GBACW Antietam game named The Gleam of Bayonets?

 

[freightshaker]

I actually had the nerve to play TCS/Omaha Beach solitare. Had the whole thing mounted on card stock and set up on a pool table. Definitly didn't finish in one sitting, not sure how long it took me but what an undertaking.

 

[Mike Duffy]

My lists of favorite monster kind of depends on what your definition of a monster is. I like to think of monster games as a game combining excessively large numbers of maps, rules, counters, and turns. Thus games like Second Front or War in the Pacific are the ultimate monsters, but The Gamers 7 Days series is really not, because of the low counter count and lack of skull-crushing complexity.

Here is my short list of favorite monster games:

1) OCS DAK. Best game ever? Maybe. Guderian's Blitzkrieg II may also be but I never had the nerve to punch a single counter yet. Ditto for Enemy at the Gates.

2) Second Front. 4 ugly maps. 5000 boring counters. 200 pages of rules. What's not to love? While I'm on the subject, I'll add March to Victory/Over There. Never completed a single TURN of this bohemoth, but one day I just might.

3) EFS. An Eastern Front lovers wet dream. Lots of fun. Tons of maps, counters, & rules. Relatively easy to play. Just not as meaty as OCS stuff.

4) RSS. As big or bigger then GBACW but much better by far than Berg's confusing chit pull stuff, but the decision (at least in This Terrible Sound and The Hollowed Ground) to treat the series as an add-on to the CWB system limited its appeal to those already in the loop.

5) Pacific War. A playable but slightly weird alternative to War in the Pacific, a completely unplayable, ugly, insane classic designed decades ago when when being unplayable, ugly, and insane was not a drawback.

6) War in Europe. Big, fun, completely obsolete.

7) War Between the States. It looked nice, but I never could get the underdeveloped rules to work.

8) The Next War. My first monster game, as well as my first SPI game and the last game my mother ever bought my for Christmas.
Sure looked decent at the time, but parts of it (i.e. the naval rules) never worked and the CRT was really screwy.

 

[jguritza]

I just finished Longest Day from Avalon Hill. I still like how that game plays. Takes up a lot of space but it is worth it.

STREETS OF STALINGRAD I have always looked but have not made the plunge to buy. I was thinking about DAK2 as well.

 

[Gepard]

That Sounds Right

Tom,

Gleam of Bayonets sounds right. Had a chit system where you pulled chits to activate the Union commanders. Absolutely hated having 3/4 of my troops standing around watching the battle.

I think I've played War Between the States (SPI) a number of times. My friends were all huge fans of the Confederacy, so I played the Union. Everytime we played, I was getting close to winning by 1863. Why? I never bother to do the worthless offenses in the East. I just take out Kentucky, grab New Orleans, take out or blockade ports, and start carving up the Confederate States as I get some good commanders. This game has me convinced that the Union could have won the war in three years.

 

[Tom DeFranco]

Re: That Sounds Right

Originally posted by Gepard
Tom,

Gleam of Bayonets sounds right. Had a chit system where you pulled chits to activate the Union commanders. Absolutely hated having 3/4 of my troops standing around watching the battle.

I think I've played War Between the States (SPI) a number of times. My friends were all huge fans of the Confederacy, so I played the Union. Everytime we played, I was getting close to winning by 1863. Why? I never bother to do the worthless offenses in the East. I just take out Kentucky, grab New Orleans, take out or blockade ports, and start carving up the Confederate States as I get some good commanders. This game has me convinced that the Union could have won the war in three years.

Your wargaming experience seems to bear out what historian Richard McMurry stresses, the the War was being won in the West possibly as early as 1862, 1863 for sure, while Lee kept the AotP at bay for 2 1/2 years. I happen to agree with his theory about 99%, up to where he says that there were no turning points - I believe that Grant's decision not to retreat after the Wilderness was a turning point.