What makes a good HASL?

Tater

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  1. Use of standard rules as much as possible (the fewer the SSR the better, including special terrain)
  2. Simple perimeter determination.
  3. RePh short and sweet.
  4. The CG need to be designed to keep both players interested.
To me, #4 is possible the most critical. One of the problems with some CG is that they are very "one sided" for "X#" of scenarios, then it flips completely. Take KGP1 (Stoumont) for example, the SS steam roll the US forces and does so for 3-4 scenarios...then it flips, and waves of Ami's swarm. It is hard to stay interested when all you are doing is exchange squads for halfsquids as your units casualty reduce.
 

DWPetros

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Primarily what makes a good subject.
I think a good HASL subject is a battle(s) that:
  1. requires specialized terrain that influenced the battle's very outcome.
  2. It should have a fairly high level of natural attraction (ie. German vs. Russian, Brits, Americans or Japanese vs Americans, Brits) to players. Without it being compelling to many, it's not worth doing (for example - the Finnish war, or the war between the Japanese and Chinese, the Italians vs Ethiopians, etc. isn't very interesting to many). Much time, resources and money is invested which demands a high 'return' (vs. just a scenario or two which is an easy 'investment') in terms of players interest and their willingness to spend money on it.
 
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Sparky

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A HASL, to be good, has to:
  • have unique and ASL interesting terrain that can't be replicated using the standard boards
  • have a decent CG that covers the terrain over multiple turns
  • should appeal to a wide audience (ie. a Finnish HASL may not work well) so that it's economically viable and interesting to many
  • given the complexity caused by the larger terrain size and attendant OB should have simple - not complex SSR
So far, Red Barricades still holds the top spot.
nice post! Agreed completely on the first as I would suspect most would, that is of course the single most important aspect of HASL play that geoboards can't deliver upon. Unique and interesting terrain unconstrained by the need to mate with other boards.

however CG, much as i love them, are not really mandatory to be considered a good product. Omaha is a great example of a first class (in my top 3 alltime HASL) that didn't have a CG but didn't for good reason. You got what you got when you got it and there was no strategic pause, no redeployments in a highly structured, tightly scripted operation. CG's are great and can separate a good HASl from a great one and there is also the large elephant in the room that it seems many simply do not have the time or space or the patience to play them and it is the scenarios that come with the HASL, the quality and quantity more than any CG that often put HASL on pedestals.

wide audience? i don't buy that especially in the terms you put them. I'm sure there are some who enjoy the nth installment of ww2 history 101 type engagements, I strongly suspect there is an even larger audience for the more off the beaten track actions and combatants. Goes back to your first point man... unique and interesting. That applies as much to the combatants and the larger action being done in a HASL as much as it might the fine points of a map.

The last point? I've read enough here and had enough experience with the undisputed king of the complex HASL to understand opinion is quite divided on that. simple or complex SSR? really depends on what one wants out the playing experience. Some actions are not well served by overly complex SSR for they are simply not necessary and most don't in my experience, but one can fully understand designers that go with complex and multiple SSR when the HASL are not the average situation. Sure one can do HASL light and make the unique .. generic.. but complex SSR have their place. The trick is of course to do them well. Keep it the realm of extra pages, not booklets haha.

oh top spot. Red Barricades might still be considered perhaps the single most influential and important HASL but I think it has long been surpassed as best. As it should have been as designers took what that product hinted was possible and ran with it. IMO I'd have to give it up to its big brother. VOTG as the single best and especially best supported HASL. Not the most fun, the evil HASL empire has a stranglehold on the top spots for that IMO, but overall design,attention to historical detail and gaming quality. VOTG easily
 

GeorgeBates

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Last I checked there was a historical map. Not sure of planned size/format. I think Lars has published pictures here previously...?
 

Yuri0352

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My preference for a 'Good HASL ' is one which depicts a battle which has not yet received much attention within the ASL system and which includes a reasonably accurate map... preferably on 1" hexes. I would also prefer a variety of terrain types beyond just another urban slugfest.

Some examples of the sort of HASL 's which I prefer are Festung Budapest, Operation Veritable, BR-T, and Pegasus Bridge. I'm looking forward to Dinant and I sincerely hope that Kohima will see the light of day.

Although it does not appear to be a part of an HASL as yet, I sure would love to play a module using the Brest-Litovsk map which (Footsteps?) posted here about a year ago.
 
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dlazov

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For me it has to portray and feel historical. That includes maps, scenarios and other chrome.

In the past CH did this well with the two Berlin’s CG, Hell’s Bridge Head, the All American Series. Suicide Creek does this well, as does RB.

BFPs Coriggodor and OS seem to do this as well as LCPs HASL modules. What’s great about LCP is the relatively low price.

DftB OT also seems to reflect this.
 

DWPetros

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...however CG, much as i love them, are not really mandatory to be considered a good product. ...CG's are great and can separate a good HASl from a great one and there is also the large elephant in the room that it seems many simply do not have the time or space or the patience to play them and it is the scenarios that come with the HASL, ..

wide audience? i don't buy that especially in the terms you put them. ... I strongly suspect there is an even larger audience for the more off the beaten track actions and combatants. Goes back to your first point man... unique and interesting.

The last point? I've read enough here and had enough experience with the undisputed king of the complex HASL to understand opinion is quite divided on that. simple or complex SSR? really depends on what one wants out the playing experience. ...The trick is of course to do them well. Keep it the realm of extra pages, not booklets haha.

oh top spot. Red Barricades might still be considered perhaps the single most influential and important HASL but I think it has long been surpassed as best. As it should have been as designers took what that product hinted was possible and ran with it. IMO I'd have to give it up to its big brother. VOTG as the single best and especially best supported HASL. Not the most fun, the evil HASL empire has a stranglehold on the top spots for that IMO, but overall design,attention to historical detail and gaming quality. VOTG easily
Good commentary. In reply -

Campaign Games: Maybe just me, but a CG provides depth and continuity that is lacking in scenario play - and pushes the player further into the historical aspect of the battle which I like a lot (maybe others are more about the immediate contest)

Wide audience: Again, maybe its me, but I'm not especially interested in the obscure battles between obscure combatants, so to speak. I'm more of a meat & potatoes historian who likes a lot of familiar combatant units (German, Russian, etc). I suspect there are others like that too, and which I assume minimizes the level of attraction with the obscure. And if there aren't enough interested players - there is no economic incentive, other than with very small 3P print runs possibly (but also problematically), to produce the HASL. I wouldn't risk spending a lot of money publishing a HASL between Italians and French Moroccans for instance (extreme - but you get it), and would only go with the familiar.

SSRs: More about personal preference maybe, but who likes to play a lot of SSRs, regardless of the historic chrome? The designers, that's who, who've gotten somewhat obsessed with the historical aspect of the battle and want everything included. That's not for me, and I project not for others. For instance, in the Ponyri HASL being finalized, the use of SSR is kept low because the scope of the battle in terms of OB and terrain is huge, which in itself causes the player a lot of mental effort to deal with. We're getting older and less willing to deal with fussy rules. At least I'm getting that way!

Best HASL: Nice to hear you like VOTG. Maybe it is the best one (hi Tom!), and hope so, but because I've personally played RB the most, I still have a soft spot for it. Charlie K. did a fantastic job on it - not only by conceiving the HASL and CG concept to begin with, but because the subject matter is so interesting too.
 

Yuri0352

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No doubt I'm stating the obvious, though in my opinion, HASL's should be just that, 'historical', not theoretical (TASL?).

I have zero interest in Sea Lion, Downfall, the German invasion of Malta, or Patton's assault on Soviet-occupied Berlin. Especially when Kohima has yet to see the light of day.
 

mi80j

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Omaha is a great example of a first class (in my top 3 alltime HASL)

, but overall design,attention to historical detail and gaming quality. VOTG easily
Omaha? Seriously? Well, Omaha did make someone a lot of money, I guess... as to quality gameplay provided, well... there is the all-too-obvious reality of its, ahem, publisher...

VOTG? A great, great scenario set - up to how many? Twenty-something? But, such monodimensional CGs, though...
 
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mi80j

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With the recent releases of Hatten in Flames and Red October, along with several other HASLs in the works, I'm curious what elements in a battle designers look for when selecting a subject for a HASL. (HASLing? HASLification? HASLization? HASLed?)

Are there any requirements? (Other than the dedication of designers and playtesters, balance, accuracy, proof-reading, nice map art, etc...)
Multiple phases?
Unique elements?
Historical significance?
Historical balance?
Allied victory? (Okay this one is tongue in cheek, but there appear to be fewer Axis victory HASLs)

What makes something like Hatten a good choice?
I will assume that the question is "what makes a great HASL", and will attempt to answer said question.

The greatest HASL is the HASL which delivers the most top-quality, bang-for-buck, gameplay.

And, there is, IMHO, one HASL, that, in this regard, stands head and shoulders above all the others.
 

Andrew Rogers

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With the recent releases of Hatten in Flames and Red October, along with several other HASLs in the works, I'm curious what elements in a battle designers look for when selecting a subject for a HASL. (HASLing? HASLification? HASLization? HASLed?)

Are there any requirements? (Other than the dedication of designers and playtesters, balance, accuracy, proof-reading, nice map art, etc...)
Multiple phases?
Unique elements?
Historical significance?
Historical balance?
Allied victory? (Okay this one is tongue in cheek, but there appear to be fewer Axis victory HASLs)

What makes something like Hatten a good choice?
Hi.
The following are some of the historical aspects I looked for when designing Hatten. A lot of these have been touch on in previous comments.
  1. A battle fought over several days where both sides attacked and counterattacked.
  2. Being able to present the combat as close to its actual scale. That is a battalion-sized encounter over a terrain roughly the size of a village.
  3. Being able to access history of the encounter from both sides.
  4. An element of combined arms.
The following are some of the HASL design rules I followed.
a. Players generally have less time to play ASL nowadays, so make the CG shorter (5-6 turns per day over 5 days in Hatten) on a smaller map (Hatten is the equivalent of three regular ASL maps)
b. If the CG is shorter, then artillery needs to be scaled back; hence only 3 black chits but this artillery is guaranteed
c. Minimal SSRs and less CG rules (eg. no rolling for 'depleted' RGs)
d. H2H is important, especially in a shorter game given the general impotence of the 'black' CC numbers
e. avoid night combat unless it was a key factor in the engagement

A little bit of chrome doesn't go astray but it doesn't have to be in the form of King Tigers or JS3s ...
i] Hatten has Hellcats
ii] A fair amount of second line troops which happens at the start of Hatten is 'retro-chrome'
iii] Flamm-hetzers
iv] A cool website ... www.hatten1945.com

The best bit of chrome is making sure the scenarios are balanced, so lots of playtesting (which is very very boring in the end!).

Regards,
Andy Rogers
 

Carln0130

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The best bit of chrome is making sure the scenarios are balanced, so lots of playtesting (which is very very boring in the end!).

Regards,
Andy Rogers
Andy, I would say on this last part you most definitely nailed it. Best balanced selection of scenarios in a HASL that I can recall. Kudos. I am enjoying playing the CG a great deal as well. Very nicely done module.
 

DWPetros

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Hi.
The following are some of the historical aspects I looked for when designing Hatten. A lot of these have been touch on in previous comments.
  1. A battle fought over several days where both sides attacked and counterattacked.
  2. Being able to present the combat as close to its actual scale. That is a battalion-sized encounter over a terrain roughly the size of a village.
  3. Being able to access history of the encounter from both sides.
  4. An element of combined arms.
(...and lots of other good comments)
I say - you really nailed this thing. Right sized, good subject, well designed, great components.. Should be a model for future HASLs.
 

mi80j

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All ASL praise and gratitude to "Hatten in Flames", the designer and all involved in bringing it to us. An exquisite product.
I bought two copies.
The quality of the product shines so brightly.
"Hatten in Flames" truly is perfection.
Thank you, very much.

To expand on my earlier comments re "Hatten in Flames":
After four years of non-stop playings of all four campaign games of "Festung Budapest", I was looking for something...
a little smaller, and, right on time, "Hatten in Flames" arrived.
Perfect. A perfect little jewel of an HASL.
Even the box art is perfect! It reminds me of something by Monet.
 
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DWPetros

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One direction for HASLs could be this: Use a combination of the current geoboards, along with either/both: 1) historically based geoboards that both mate with existing other geoboards and have their terrain be historical, 2) use large historical overlays for the existing geoboards. It would be a kind of hybrid between the standard HASL and the ordinary scenarios. We're already OK with both types of depiction; one very historical (HASLs), one not as much (normal scenarios).

With the above, you could depict a larger historical battle (ie. Kursk north, St.Lo, Voronehz) linked together, create some new geoboards (which could be used elsewhere also), and still achieve the historical battle you're looking for. The HSASL model established already could work along with this. In other words, you could still do a HASL thing, without the map, rules, publication monstrosity aspect. Might work.
 
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