What if the HSF had challenged the GF in early 1915???

[Blutarski]

No question that the GF had a powerful numerical superiority in cruisers, both light and armored. And in 1914-early 1915, the Germans really had no counter to the 6in-armed Town Class. Properly deployed, these ships would have represented a highly effective counter to any German superiority in light torpedo craft.

One closing remark on Jellicoe's destroyer versus torpedo boat calculus - He was the person ultimately responsible for evaluating and insuring against worst case scenarios.

 

[Coypus]

And Coypus, to show that flash WAS a respecter of nationalities, because different nations used different chemicals that had vastly different properties, how many long-duration propellant fires in turrets did the Brits have at Jutland? :smoke:.

I'm not sure of your point. I totally agree in British ships the propellant was unstable and if enough was present a chain reaction occured and Battlecrusiers went boom!

If a fire went unchecked and reached a magazine it went boom. Wheras Flash was largley an RN problem fire was international one. The Germans learnt that after Dogger The Sedylitz came with in an ace of blowing up due to fire and at Jutland plenty of magazines got flooded. If conflagerations were too big would luck hold again with most of the crew dead? Nope I dont think it would thats why the Germans learnt the lesson.

 

[Tom Hunter]

Bullethead

My understanding is that the fire on Seydlitz at Dogger bank was much more severe than the fires at Jutland. There is no question it involved both turrets and if memory servers it spread from one to the other.

Again, if I recall correctly (we have read all the same books, but I read them a while ago) the German turret fires at Jutland were single turret fires that did not spread from barbette to barbette.

So was Seydlitz really unlucky at Dogger bank, or did the precaution of reducing the amount of combustable material in the turrets reduce the consequences of the turret fires?

Every time a turret burns there is some chance of the fire spreading to a second barbette, and there is some chance (however small) of the ship exploding. If the German turret fires in 1916 were smaller and did not spread as far as the one in 1915 can you tell us why?

If the reason is lessons learned at Dogger bank, then a fleet action in 1915 would have an increased likelyhood of catastrophic fires on the German ships.

 

[Blutarski]

And Coypus, to show that flash WAS a respecter of nationalities, because different nations used different chemicals that had vastly different properties, how many long-duration propellant fires in turrets did the Brits have at Jutland? :smoke:.

..... Absolutely agree. According to Goldrick [The King's Ships Were at Sea], SEYDLITZ had nearly 14,000 lbs [7 TONS] of propellant consumed in the two barbette fires. Since the crews of both turrets had all been killed by the fires, the magazines were not flooded until three men laboriously made their way below decks aft to the flooding valves. Would SEYDLITZ's magazines have detonated had they not been flooded? Almost certainly. But the stability of the German propellant in the magazines bought the precious time necessary to save the situation. Had this been a British battlecruiser, there is no question in my mind that it would have become a smoking crater in the ocean in terrifyingly short order.

Compared to British cordite, and completely separate from any issues of flash-proofing systems or ammunition handling procedures, German propellant was simply far safer - by at least an order of magnitude. The British lost five ships to magazine explosions at Jutland plus BULWARK, VANGUARD, and NATAL to spontaneous magazine explosions while in harbor. The Germans lost zero to the best of my knowledge [POMMERN's loss being the result of a torpedo hit and therefore excluded]. Case closed.

 

[Bullethead]

So was Seydlitz really unlucky at Dogger bank, or did the precaution of reducing the amount of combustable material in the turrets reduce the consequences of the turret fires?

Unlucky. The shell damage only burned 1 turret. But German propellant burned slowly enough, as opposed, say, to exploding, that some guys in the bottom of that barbette to had time to try to escape. They had enough time to open both hatches to the adjacent barbette, but by the time they had the 2nd hatch open, the fire was big enough to follow them into it. Or perhaps it was just sucked thay way by the chimney effect and fresh air. Either way, in it went. Thus, the 2nd turret burned. Had it not been for these guys, the 2nd turret would not have burned. But given the same circumstances, it likely would have still burned even with fewer charges in the barbette. Maybe not.

At Jutland, one of these 2 barbettes was hit again. This time, nobody opened the connecting doors, so only 1 burned out.

 

[Coypus]

..... Absolutely agree. According to Goldrick [The King's Ships Were at Sea], SEYDLITZ had nearly 14,000 lbs [7 TONS] of propellant consumed in the two barbette fires. Since the crews of both turrets had all been killed by the fires, the magazines were not flooded until three men laboriously made their way below decks aft to the flooding valves. Would SEYDLITZ's magazines have detonated had they not been flooded? Almost certainly. But the stability of the German propellant in the magazines bought the precious time necessary to save the situation. Had this been a British battlecruiser, there is no question in my mind that it would have been a smoking crater in the ocean in unimaginably short order.

Compared to British cordite, and completely separate from any issues of flash-proofing systems or ammunition handling procedures, German propellant was simply far safer - by at least an order of magnitude. The British lost five ships to magazine explosions at Jutland plus BULWARK, VANGUARD, and NATAL to spontaneous magazine explosions while in harbor. The Germans lost zero to the best of my knowledge [POMMERN's loss being the result of a torpedo hit and therefore excluded]. Case closed.

Nobody is debating that the fact is the HSF fleet learnt to minimise combustable materiel in the turret not because of the flash but because of the risk of fire getting out of control before counter action could take place.

The Germans lost Karlsruhe to explosion

 

[Blutarski]

Nobody is debating that the fact is the HSF fleet learnt to minimise combustable materiel in the turret not because of the flash but because of the risk of fire getting out of control before counter action could take place.

The Germans lost Karlsruhe to explosion

..... Fair comment re KARLSRUHE. But the jury is still out [and will likely ever remain so] as to the cause of the explosion. We don't know if it was propellant or a bad HE shell or a torpedo warhead. Some quite reasonable theories have been advanced about the possibility of an explosion in the forward boiler room.

Arguing against an ammunition explosion is the fact that her main battery ammunition was all 10.5cm fixed QF type, which is usually well behaved.

 

[Bullethead]

Some quite reasonable theories have been advanced about the possibility of an explosion in the forward boiler room.

That does seem to be what the Germans themselves thought most likely at the time, and they were the only witnesses. Apparently some rather unsound expedients were tried to keep the ship running in exile. But as you say, nobody will ever know, and even they weren't sure. Still, this does seem a bit more convincing that a spontaneous ammo explosion.

 

[Coypus]

That does seem to be what the Germans themselves thought most likely at the time, and they were the only witnesses. Apparently some rather unsound expedients were tried to keep the ship running in exile. But as you say, nobody will ever know, and even they weren't sure. Still, this does seem a bit more convincing that a spontaneous ammo explosion.

Boiler room is a possibility but my guess is the good old bulkhead fire causing the stuff on the otherside to go boom.

 

[saddletank]

Yorck was in fact lost on German mines returning from an HSF sortie. Roon, however, never seems to have left the Baltic. Prinz Heinrich was west of Kiel until April 1915, so might have gone out, too, but after that she went to the Baltic.

Even so, I would very much like to see these classes modelled. They are interesting ships.

 

[rgreat]

Even so, I would very much like to see these classes modelled. They are interesting ships.

Starting from:
Prinz Heinrich (2x24cm + 10x5.9cm, 20 knots)
Prinz Adalbert + Friedrich Carl (4x21cm + 10x5.9cm, 20 knots)
Roon + Yorck (4x21cm + 10x5.9cm, 21 knots)
Scharnhorst + Gneisenau (8x21cm + 6x5.9cm, 22.7 knots)
Blücher (12x21cm + 8x5.9cm, 25.8 knots)

I want all of them.

HSF definitelty need Armored Cruisers.

 

[Coypus]

If the Blucher did 25 knots it would not have been sunk

 

[saddletank]

Given that Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger were doing 27 knots and cutting corners I don't have a problem with them catching a 25.8 knot ship.

New Zealand and Indomitable at 25-26 knots were the vessels unable to keep up with Seydlitz, Moltke and Derfflinger.

Given that Beatty opened fire at about 8:50am and Blucher wasn't slowed down by Princess Royal's hit until 10:30, over 90 minutes later, the extra knot difference seems to account for the slow closing of the range.

And as the British found out later in the war to their cost, high speed won't save a ship; thick armour and high compartmentalisation does.

 

[Yang]

If the Blucher did 25 knots it would not have been sunk

You should really work on your wording and expression. The reason why your postings are often perceived as rude is because of exactly this "i know it all" stance by statements that you simply can not prove know without a timemachine. We have always been a friendly community of naval enthusiasts with all kinds of different levels of technical expertise and as far as i can remember we could always keep it friendly by our own. I really hope we can keep it that way without the need of moderating that other forums require. Oh and you shouldn´t use smileys that much when making those absolute statements it just further adds to the perceived rudeness.

Sorry if i went overboard by myself since we had a freshly appointed moderator not so long ago and saddletank is now back as well so i´m guessing they already said something about it. Btw welcome back saddletank i think you went missing just the time i came freshly aboard.

 

[Coypus]

Given that Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger were doing 27 knots and cutting corners I don't have a problem with them catching a 25.8 knot ship.

New Zealand and Indomitable at 25-26 knots were the vessels unable to keep up with Seydlitz, Moltke and Derfflinger.

Given that Beatty opened fire at about 8:50am and Blucher wasn't slowed down by Princess Royal's hit until 10:30, over 90 minutes later, the extra knot difference seems to account for the slow closing of the range.

And as the British found out later in the war to their cost, high speed won't save a ship; thick armour and high compartmentalisation does.

I believe Hipper could not do more than 23 knots with the Blucher in tow.

 

[Coypus]

You should really work on your wording and expression. The reason why your postings are often perceived as rude is because of exactly this "i know it all" stance by statements that you simply can not prove know without a timemachine. We have always been a friendly community of naval enthusiasts with all kinds of different levels of technical expertise and as far as i can remember we could always keep it friendly by our own. I really hope we can keep it that way without the need of moderating that other forums require. Oh and you shouldn´t use smileys that much when making those absolute statements it just further adds to the perceived rudeness.

I don't see how I am being unfriendly, I put a smilie after the post for the opposite reason I thought that was a friendly gesture. I disagree with certain statistics and the interpretation. I'm hoping someone would post nonsense about the RN so as I could at least be more balanced. If you look back a few posts I did make a joke about The Blucher being able to hydroplane in the *hypothectical* 1915 expansion

The Blucher did 25.86 knts on trials which is exceptional for a ship with reciprocating machinery. Since its trial it was fitted with a tripod mast which would have required extra weight. On operations it was in the North sea in January with 200 men over her compliment burning c*** coal with a wartime load. What are the odds of it making 25 knots? Hipper is documented as travelling at 23 knots because of the Blucher.

 

[rgreat]

If i got it right 25.8 was his best speed.

At Dogger Bank poor Blueher can be quite slower.

 

[Coypus]

If i got it right 25.8 was his best speed.

At Dogger Bank poor Blueher can be quite slower.

Did not mean to offend you mate, 25.8 on trails was the top speed that was over a measured mile, the load would be optimal and the stokers fresh. One thing people tend to forget in this era is coal fired ships were dependant on the stamina of the stokers. These high speeds you hear about like the Lion doing 28 knts at Dogger could only be maintained for a limited period

 

[Yang]

I don't see how I am being unfriendly, I put a smilie after the post for the opposite reason I thought that was a friendly gesture. I disagree with certain statistics and the interpretation. I'm hoping someone would post nonsense about the RN so as I could at least be more balanced. If you look back a few posts I did make a joke about The Blucher being able to hydroplane in the *hypothectical* 1915 expansion

Well smilies are no magical eraser for cynical remarks. If the words they are used along can be interpreted as cynical they even serve as an amplifier. I´m sure that you aren´t doing it intentional but from the first page it looked like you were making fun of the topic (before it even started) and were just waiting for someone entering the arena saying something that doesn´t suit your agenda. Anyway that just my personal impression that i got from reading the first page of this topic and on some of your posts on other threads. I think the wording you used in the quoted post is much better.

The Blucher did 25.86 knts on trials which is exceptional for a ship with reciprocating machinery. Since its trial it was fitted with a tripod mast which would have required extra weight. On operations it was in the North sea in January with 200 men over her compliment burning c*** coal with a wartime load. What are the odds of it making 25 knots? Hipper is documented as travelling at 23 knots because of the Blucher.

Oh, i wasn´t arguing against the speed Blücher was able to go but was just implying that she probably would have been a loss even if she could have reached something close to her trial speed.

 

[Coypus]

Well smilies are no magical eraser for cynical remarks. If the words they are used along can be interpreted as cynical they even serve as an amplifier. I´m sure that you aren´t doing it intentional but from the first page it looked like you were making fun of the topic (before it even started) and were just waiting for someone entering the arena saying something that doesn´t suit your agenda. Anyway that just my personal impression that i got from reading the first page of this topic and on some of your posts on other threads. I think the wording you used in the quoted post is much better. .

Sorry if I came across that way and maybe your right that I came across too obtuse but I was only trying to point out that sometime you are better looking at what forces were actually fielded than what was available on paper

Oh, i wasn´t arguing against the speed Blücher was able to go but was just implying that she probably would have been a loss even if she could have reached something close to her trial speed.

The Blucher is one of my favorite ships it just looks so ahead of its time compared to every other armoured cruiser unfortunatly while it would have been more than a match for the RN ones it never met them in combat

Where I live there are two WWI era 6 inch guns coastal defence guns and a WWI naval German 88mm the difference is scary So I can imagine the problem the Blucher faced that day

Thats why a more ship packs would be good to have the Blucher fight the Defence or Black Prince.