What does PTP stand for in Russian ordnance?

zgrose

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
4,235
Reaction score
948
Location
Kingwood, TX
First name
Zoltan
Country
llUnited States
One of the things I like to do before a scenario is Google images of the tanks/ordnance involved so that I have a better mental image of what's going on. I'm getting ready to play ASL134 so I google 'PTP obr 43' and don't get many useful hits. I see that its also known as the ZiS-2 and that gets me the images I'm looking for.

So my question is, where does 'PTP obr 43' come from and what does it stand for?
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
One of the things I like to do before a scenario is Google images of the tanks/ordnance involved so that I have a better mental image of what's going on. I'm getting ready to play ASL134 so I google 'PTP obr 43' and don't get many useful hits. I see that its also known as the ZiS-2 and that gets me the images I'm looking for.

So my question is, where does 'PTP obr 43' come from and what does it stand for?
Protivotankovaja Puska....
Literally I think 'anti tank weapon'...

Obr is the version...ie 1943.....

So literally PTP obr 43....

1943 anti tank gun

I think this is correct but Paul Weir is your man on stuff like this....he's a walking, talking encyclopedia
 

zgrose

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
4,235
Reaction score
948
Location
Kingwood, TX
First name
Zoltan
Country
llUnited States
Ah, so противотанковая пушка -> Protivotankovaja Puska? OK, makes sense.
 

Bill Cirillo

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,715
Reaction score
815
Location
Newport News, VA
Country
llUnited States
Pounded To Pieces...

Playtested a scenario last night where the Russians had a large caliber ART piece...didn't end well...



One of the things I like to do before a scenario is Google images of the tanks/ordnance involved so that I have a better mental image of what's going on. I'm getting ready to play ASL134 so I google 'PTP obr 43' and don't get many useful hits. I see that its also known as the ZiS-2 and that gets me the images I'm looking for.

So my question is, where does 'PTP obr 43' come from and what does it stand for?
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
Pounded To Pieces...

Playtested a scenario last night where the Russians had a large caliber ART piece...didn't end well...
Yeah....
That 57mm Russian piece is bloody lethal...
And from what I've read it's under-rated in ASL....apparently it was an absolute monster of a gun insofar as performance is concerned
Again...I'm waiting to hear what Paul says
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Earlier posts had the PTP part right as far as I know. I never paid much attention to transliteration of Cyrillic, there always seems to be some argument over the vowels.

I would knock the TK up by 1 to 16.

When comparing penetration values be very wary as different states used different target materials and different criteria for penetration. The Soviets used a system of IP (initial penetration) where 20% of the projectile penetrated and CP (certified penetration) where 75% penetrated.
From memory, I think the Germans used 50%, the British used varying % (20%, 40% and 70% for different classes of guns come to mind) but closer to the German overall.

A second source of confusion is the projectile type. EG the British 6lbr (57L) started with solid shot (AP) then added capped shot (APC) to deal with face hardened armour and finally added a ballistic shield (cap) to improve the aerodynamics of the APC to give APCBC. And they had two lengths of gun. However in all the steps to improve the ammunition the Soviet ZiS-2 seems to have kept from 10 to 20 mm ahead of the various length 6lbr, at least until APDS came along.

Ditto the US 37mm (37LL) started out as inferior to the British 2lbr (40L) but had capped shot much earlier and that had a better chance against the likes of the the Pz III H. ASL figures, I assume for simplicity, assume the best ammo of its class (AP, APCR, APDS, HEAT) for a gun even if historically there was a lot of variation in performance between sub-types.

Any figures I have seen for the Soviet F-34 (76L tank gun) and US 75 mm M3 show no real difference (76L: 75 mm at 90°, 500 m, 75: 76 mm at 90°, 500 m) yet the ASL TK have 13 (76L) and 14 (75). Ditto the Soviet 85 is closer to the German 88 than ASL suggests, I could go on and on.

Talking about annoying ASL things, the ZiS-2 (57LL) and ZiS-3 (76L) had the exact same carriage and shield, the only difference was the gun and sights. Indeed the ZiS-2 gun was much longer than the ZiS-3, yet the ZiS-2 is a small target and the ZiS-3 is a normal target. Grrrrrrr!:angry: Admitedly the 76L gun represents some earlier guns as well, but they differed little in size. Even if both were normal size, the (longer) ZiS-2 could set up in a building whilst the (shorter) ZiS-3 could not. Double Grrrrrrrr!:mad:
 
Last edited:

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
Earlier posts had the PTP part right as far as I know. I never paid much attention to transliteration of Cyrillic, there always seems to be some argument over the vowels.

I would knock the TK up by 1 to 16.

When comparing penetration values be very wary as different states used different target materials and different criteria for penetration. The Soviets used a system of IP (initial penetration) where 20% of the projectile penetrated and CP (certified penetration) where 75% penetrated.
From memory, I think the Germans used 50%, the British used varying % (20%, 40% and 70% for different classes of guns come to mind) but closer to the German overall.

A second source of confusion is the projectile type. EG the British 6lbr (57L) started with solid shot (AP) then added capped shot (APC) to deal with face hardened armour and finally added a ballistic shield (cap) to improve the aerodynamics of the APC to give APCBC. And they had two lengths of gun. However in all the steps to improve the ammunition the Soviet ZiS-2 seems to have kept from 10 to 20 mm ahead of the various length 6lbr, at least until APDS came along.

Ditto the US 37mm (37LL) started out as inferior to the British 2lbr (40L) but had capped shot much earlier and that had a better chance against the likes of the the Pz III H. ASL figures, I assume for simplicity, assume the best ammo of its class (AP, APCR, APDS, HEAT) for a gun even if historically there was a lot of variation in performance between sub-types.

Any figures I have seen for the Soviet F-34 (76L tank gun) and US 75 mm M3 show no real difference (76L: 75 mm at 90°, 500 m, 75: 76 mm at 90°, 500 m) yet the ASL TK have 13 (76L) and 14 (75). Ditto the Soviet 85 is closer to the German 88 than ASL suggests, I could go on and on.

Talking about annoying ASL things, the ZiS-2 (57LL) and ZiS-3 (76L) had the exact same carriage and shield, the only difference was the gun and sights. Indeed the ZiS-2 gun was much longer than the ZiS-3, yet the ZiS-2 is a small target and the ZiS-3 is a normal target. Grrrrrrr!:angry: Admitedly the 76L gun represents some earlier guns as well, but they differed little in size. Even if both were normal size, the (longer) Zis-2 could set up in a building whilst the (shorter) ZiS-3 could not. Double Grrrrrrrr!:mad:
Looking at photos of that ZIS 2 it should be a 57LLL gun....
It's massive
 

Victor

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Messages
989
Reaction score
104
Location
Bolshoy Dom
Country
llUnited States
Interesting...so much for my theory that it stood for pretty tight :hush:
 

Kevin Kenneally

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
18,066
Reaction score
888
Location
Central Texas USA.
Country
llUnited States
Has anyone ever enjoyed using the 57L AT for the Russians?

I have learned to HATE the 45L AT Gun.... But never have any luck using the 57L version.... I constantly roll the "12s" on the first try....
 
Top