What do you think of MMP's stewardship of ASL so far?

What do you think of MMP's handling of ASL so far?

  • They are doing a fantastic job!

    Votes: 9 6.3%
  • Not perfect, but they're doing very well

    Votes: 42 29.6%
  • Good. Better than I thought they would

    Votes: 8 5.6%
  • I'm content with the job they're doing

    Votes: 32 22.5%
  • They're doing a mediocre job

    Votes: 30 21.1%
  • Not terrible, but I wish they were doing a lot better

    Votes: 16 11.3%
  • Terrible. I'm very disappointed so far

    Votes: 5 3.5%

  • Total voters
    142

Reepicheep

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My guess is it's the poll... an unfortunate consequence of the polls desire to gain prominence every time someone votes.
 

cujo8-1

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I took a ten year hiatus from ASL after moving to Turkey in 1993 and not finding any opponents. I had everything up to Croix De Guerre at the time of the move. Upon moving back to the states, I got involved with my old ASL group again and we have since added new people. I have also obtained PB, ABTF, Doomed Bats, AP2 and all the Journals (minus J2) with the ASLRB and AoO on pre-order.

I am happy that MMP has taken up the cause and is publishing material. I don't particularly like the publishing of "new and improved" versions because I won't re-buy Beyond Valor, etc. and some of the new folks in the group seem to think old versions are somehow not good anymore.

I was also a little miffed that after buying ABTF, I found the corrected counters were only offered in Journal 2 which is out of print. I am hoping that MMP will make this right however, with a reprinting of that Journal.

All in all, I am happy with the effort, but would like to see less counter corrections and errata in future.

Ciao for now,

Mike
 

wiretwister63

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I have not voted yet as I am new to the game and need to get my feet wet before making an opinion.

If this forum stays active and MMP keeps dedicated to the game system and it's players by publishing errata pages and game aids (many in a downloadable form..One suggestion) will be a good start.

It has been my experiance that players make the game and thier purchase and input keep the company's active.

The fact that a new rule book and BV reprint will include extras, I.E> BV now has red barricades and all the maps needed to play. I did not like the AH copy I got not having all boards included. That was three more purchases I had to make.

Another + is Mr. Daltons involvement in this forum. It shows MMP is interested in it's Players.

DJ
 

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The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

Unfortunately, as a long time player, I can only give them a mediocre.

Customer Service:
Their office customer service I have found to be exceptional. A simple phone call has always resulted in a more that satisfactory solution. However, two of the reasons I had to call – I had to change the credit card I used for the preorder. This is because some of the products I have preordered have been in that state for so long – AoO prime example.

They also have not been active in keeping the fan base up to date. The primary vehicle for this should be their website. However, if the site gets updated once a quarter it is amazing. For products like AoO they should have monthly status reports the way many computer game manufactures do with their fan base.

Also, and what has surprised me the most, they do not host their own moderated forum on their own website. They have a link for the ASLML – the way it is advertised on the website makes one think it is the official company forum (additionally, since the web interface to the ASLML is off-line you would think they would update their link). The ASLML is a poor forum for a company’s official voice – primarily because the signal:noise is so low.

Production:
The company still feels like a fan production instead of a group devoted to producing ASL. They publish deadlines that keep slipping, not by weeks but by months and years (AoO has been in the works since just before the demise of AH). They have let products go out of print. If they had put more planning into the production of ASLRB v2, they would have made in a form that could benefit from On Demand publishing.

I also feel that the starter kits are poorly conceived. The start kits should have been the means for introducing the original Squad Leader series of boards to the system. I think it would have been more clever if the starter kits were published like the original SL modules (using the same names) and introduced the system using the Programmed Instruction format. That way there wouldn’t be two sets of rules to play ASL. They have in essence created an ASL-lite version (a method that fragmented the Star Fleet Battles community btw).

I don’t think they have enough eyes proofing their products – especially the counters which are the hardest to correct post-printing.

Finally, my biggest pet peeve is that when they have reproduced modules, they have changed components and introduced even more errata. So now we have BV v1 and BV v2 that have different errata problems. BV v2 has Red Barricades in it, BV v1 doesn’t. Of course, we as a community squawked quite loudly over the Croix de Guerre screw up. You would have thought that they would have learned from this. CdG suffers from v1 done by AH and then the reprint right on its heels by MMP that resulted in the need for two sets of errata – not only for counters, but for rulebook pages.

For King and Country continues this mind set and exacerbates this problem even more. Instead of just reprinting the Backblast scenarios in their own journal, we get yet a third printing of some of these in FKaC. They again have made changes to counters which will necessitate a reprinting of those in some other format so those of us that already own West of Alamein don’t have to buy FKaC.

At this point, I can understand why someone new to the game would be confused on what they should and shouldn’t buy. Wiretwister63’s questions about Chapter K are a perfect example of this problem. Even worse, they are about to do the same thing with Beyond Valor. We will get a BV v3, that will have major differences from the original two.

At the very least, they need to put on their web site detailed information for each product that has been release by them and AH. They should also state where each product was corrected and the path necessary to make it complete and current. Hell, I own ever original ASL product plus Generals plus Annuals and I can’t keep it straight. Just trying to assemble a complete rulebook is quite a chore.

Now don’t get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Brian, Curt, and Perry. But I think they could do better – a lot better. I also think that they could make a greater effort to make new offerings compatible with the old and reprints of product as identical as possible.

I would also be nice to have a yearly product like the Journal or Out of the Attic. Neither has to be the massive undertakings they currently are. The Annuals and the Journals run about 50 pages (give or take) with 16 or more scenarios. How about cutting both of these number in half ? That would make it possible to do a yearly magazine. After all that was about the size of Backblast.

And for crying out loud, either make an electronic version of the complete rulebook and/or set it up for publishing on demand.
 
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Gunner Scott

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Hi-

Well Kommrade, your gonna have Ron Mosher, Keith D. and a host of other MMP supporters shout you down. So be ready for the back lash.

BTW, it looks like Shifting Sands will be going to the printers next from what I saw on CSW. So once more no ASL.

Also, I did lodge a complaint with Josh Izzo, Hasbro's Publications and license department head. He is investigating MMP's lack of product output right now.

Scott
 

Dr Zaius

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SGT HOLST said:
Hi-

Well Kommrade, your gonna have Ron Mosher, Keith D. and a host of other MMP supporters shout you down. So be ready for the back lash.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Justified or not, this isn't something that is by any means limited to MMP supporters. Most popular games have a fairly hardcore cadre of supporters who tend to be tad on the defensive side. There's probably no harm in it.

Also, I did lodge a complaint with Josh Izzo, Hasbro's Publications and license department head. He is investigating MMP's lack of product output right now.

Scott
Scott, I would like to ask what i consider to be a fair question at this point. What exactly is your goal here? I mean, what change or improvement are you looking to bring about by going this route? Are you simply trying to nudge MMP into moving faster with product releases, or do you want to see Hasbro award the ASL license to another company?

If it is the second option, then what exactly would the plan be here? Which company is it that has the resources and talent to do a better job with ASL than MMP?

Are you sure this is the best approach? You certainly have a right as a customer to make your opinion felt, I'm just wondering what it is that you want MMP to do differently. I'm not talking about ancient history or whatever in the past, I'm talking about specific issues you have with the way MMP is doing business.
 

Nat Mallet

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waterrabbit said:
They also have not been active in keeping the fan base up to date. The primary vehicle for this should be their website. However, if the site gets updated once a quarter it is amazing. For products like AoO they should have monthly status reports the way many computer game manufactures do with their fan base.
Agreed. There are tons of free Forums and Blogging software packages, and really cheap hosting services available, which eliminates any possible excuse not to be on the net.

Granted, Keith (and the others) does a good job of participating in many forums to answer questions, provide updates and and get a feel of what ASL players are looking for.

But it still doesn't excuse not having more frequent updates of their own site. I'm sure there are tons of people with the right skills that would volunteer to do the work.

waterrabbit said:
Also, and what has surprised me the most, they do not host their own moderated forum on their own website.
I disagree with you here. There are plenty of good forums out there, so I don't think it's necessary for MMP to have their own. A link to whichever one they prefer would be essential.

waterrabbit said:
The ASLML is a poor forum for a company’s official voice – primarily because the signal:noise is so low.
Damm straight. Although I do think they should have their own announcement list, where only they get to post information. Anyone can subscribe, but the addresses aren't private. Again, most e-Commerce companies do this already, and it's really not hard to setup.

waterrabbit said:
The company still feels like a fan production instead of a group devoted to producing ASL. They publish deadlines that keep slipping, not by weeks but by months and years (AoO has been in the works since just before the demise of AH). They have let products go out of print.
True, but I think it is mostly a fan production. Like it or not ASL can't really compete in today's gaming market. Boardgames in general aren't able to compete with video games, and ASL, being one of the most expensive and most complicated game systems out there, can hardly compete in the boardgame market alone.

I think we owe a lot of gratitude to the MMP guys for even keeping ASL alive.

Is it annoying that the products sometimes take forever to ship? Yes. Is it annoying that some products are out of print? Yes. Could they do better? I don't know, as I don't run their business. Maybe if we saw behind the scenes, we'd say yes. We may also be shocked that they managed to get over incredible obstacles that we'd never have imagined.

waterrabbit said:
The start kits should have been the means for introducing the original Squad Leader series of boards to the system
I don't think this is a good idea. When I got into ASL, only BV v1 was out, and Squad Leader had been out of print for a long time. Getting the boards to play the BV scenarios was difficult. I thought to myself "who was the genius who didn't make these modules self contained?" Buying expansions is one thing, but buying dependencies is another. Frankly, I think the rule book should be included with BV. Both to play, so why not combine them?

Keith D stated in some other forum that BV v3 would be self-containted, and in my opinion that's the way to go.

waterrabbit said:
my biggest pet peeve is that when they have reproduced modules, they have changed components and introduced even more errata.
It's by biggest annoyance as well, but not for the same reasons.

When the modules change, it makes it very difficult for new players to get what they need to play, because the sometimes, some pieces aren't available in ANY module.

For instance, the desert rules. The British OOB was re-released, which is great, but the desert rules are still missing. MMP stated they'll be released in another module, but when is that going to happen? Right now, they're focussing on reprinting the rule book, BV (which is changing again), AoO, and there are other modules that take priority over the desert rules, like Code of Bushido (which is essential for anyone wanting to get into Pacific Theatre scenarios).

So now I'm screwed. Well, just a little, since I don't have time for much ASL to begin with :) ).

waterrabbit said:
And for crying out loud, either make an electronic version of the complete rulebook
Ah, the ASL unicorn. I'd pay good money for a cross-linked HTML or PDF rule book.

Nat
 

Nat Mallet

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SGT HOLST said:
Also, I did lodge a complaint with Josh Izzo, Hasbro's Publications and license department head. He is investigating MMP's lack of product output right now.
Gee, thanks. And when Hasbro revokes their license, and calls the whole thing off as a failed experiment, how is that going to advance the ASL hobby?

Nat
 

Gunner Scott

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Hi-

Don writes;

Don Maddox said:
Scott, I would like to ask what i consider to be a fair question at this point. What exactly is your goal here? I mean, what change or improvement are you looking to bring about by going this route? Are you simply trying to nudge MMP into moving faster with product releases, or do you want to see Hasbro award the ASL license to another company?
My goal is to see ASL in the hands of ASL'ers who care, not one person trying to be the Avalon Hill game company. MMP move faster? That will never happen, they do not have the time or resources to do such a thing. Perhaps when they were just an ASL only group, but now they have alot of other games on their plate.

I think HoB would be the best choice for the ASL license.

If it is the second option, then what exactly would the plan be here? Which company is it that has the resources and talent to do a better job with ASL than MMP?
HoB has alot of talent, Capt Chas Smith, Steve Swann, Steve D. Mark Pitcavage and so on. HoB also has the resources to make mounted boards and cool modules, gads, if I see another Brit CG I'll gag.

Are you sure this is the best approach? You certainly have a right as a customer to make your opinion felt, I'm just wondering what it is that you want MMP to do differently. I'm not talking about ancient history or whatever in the past, I'm talking about specific issues you have with the way MMP is doing business.
The problem is, MMP pissed off alot of the best ASL telent in the hobby with their policy of an exclusive license to ASL. Curt promised years back that everybody would have a piece of the pie if they did not apply for the ASL license and let him handle it. Well he lied and as soon as MMP had the license, letters from MMP lawyers went out the door. A very nasty situation that tore the hobby apart. Anyway, MMP needs crediblity and they dont have it.

Scott
 

da priest

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SGT HOLST said:
Also, I did lodge a complaint with Josh Izzo, Hasbro's Publications and license department head. He is investigating MMP's lack of product output right now.Scott
Thanks, Scott. Now if they pull the license, we'll know whom to blame.

You've posted some silly stuff in the past, and we could tolerate it, because it was mostly dumb and funny, but going this far, with NO support from the ASL community is beyond the pale.

Look at the poll above, over 70% are comfortable(note not totally satisfied, but comfortable) with the ASL hobby in the hands of MMP. Only one(1), as in solo, or all alone player is totally dissatisfied--wonder who that is?

You stand absolutely alone in your opinion, I see no one else supporting this type of behavior.

Your desire to hurt individuals at MMP, personally, not as an upset consumer, has apparently clouded your thinking. Remember they not only own the license, but all the stuff in their warehouse, and have the rights to hold on to all material they generated(ASLRBv2/v3 computer materials for the printers, etc,). A new ASL manufacturer would get the license and NOTHING else. Can you say how many more years, before any of the core system gets out?

Finally, have you asked HOB if they could support the hobby in your envisioned style?...Good Luck.

Who other than MMP has the finances/interest/and community trust? No-one.

Scott many moons ago I was one of the guys who supported getting you back on the mailing list when you left, due to harassment over your "spelling" problems. Now for the first time ever in my life I'm saying to a fellow ASLer, please leave, the forums/lists/consim and ASL all together. The hobby doesn't need your type of support.
 

ross

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SGT HOLST said:
Hi-

Also, I did lodge a complaint with Josh Izzo, Hasbro's Publications and license department head. He is investigating MMP's lack of product output right now.

Scott
What's Mr. Izzo's contact information? I think it only fair that he listen to other opinions of MMP's stewardship of ASL.
 

Gunner Scott

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Hmmmm, and I guess Ron, you must be the one who voted that MMP is doing a fantastic job.

Ron, its people like you that has put this hobby in the grave, belive me, I dont think MMP cares what I or thers do. They have always done thing their way and it will continue to be that way for some time.

Ron, do you honestly think they will complete the ASL system? Look how badly screwed up it is, two versions of the rules, two versions of counter eratta. This is not the way Don Greenwood invisioned ASL to be.

But as I said earlier, I expected such from an individuel like you. As for why I lodged my complaint, I am a disatisfied customer and thats my bloody right. I am also an NCO, and as such, I took the intiative to contact Josh about my disappointment with MMP production output. If you dont like it, tough luck.

Scott
 

da priest

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SGT HOLST said:
Hmmmm, and I guess Ron, you must be the one who voted that MMP is doing a fantastic job.Scott
Scott, you really have no idea what's going on, do you.

I am dissatisfied with some aspects of MMP's handling of the system, AoO for instance. But I would never hurt the hobby itself, because of that dissatisfaction.

Your vendetta against the men of MMP has really sent you over the edge. Please go away, I want my hobby to last a few more years.
 

Dr Zaius

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Scott, some of the points you're making may have some degree of validity to them, but that's a very difficult thing to judge without direct knowledge of the inner workings of the company. I'm sure that Multi-map Publishing, like any other game company, chooses not to display all of their dirty laundry in public (who can blame them?). Also, they probably don't brag about every little problem they solve or overcome behind-the-scenes.

Let's step back for a moment and take a closer look at some of the issues here.

Whoever the company is that holds the ASL license, they have to be able to keep a fair quantity of products on-hand in their storage area. This sounds easy enough in theory, but it gets very expensive very quickly. It means they have to have a professional-level operation that maintains an office, a distribution scheme, website, and the personnel to run it all. Ron may be right: Heat of Battle is a great outfit and I personally do what I can to support them at Warfare HQ, however, they are a very small operation. I don't claim to have direct knowledge of their overall financial situation or available resources, but can they put up the $50,000 license fee among other things? Have they ever been able to reprint their earlier products that went out of print? Can they afford the storage space and the costs for the printers? And we're not talking about printing up a few hundred scenario packs or a small module, we're talking about thousands of copies of multiple projects. A move like you're talking about here is probably way out of HoB's league at the moment.

Ron's other point is also central to the whole issue as well. Multi-Man Publishing has designed at least half the official ASL products and I'm sure they have at least some intellectual rights to that material. Were Hasbro to forcibly strip MMP of their ASL license and award it to another company, the new licensee would more than likely be starting from scratch. It's also more than possible that they could end up paying royalty fees to MMP in addition to the annual ASL license fee. Thus this new company would start off in an even deeper financial hole from which they would need to dig themselves out of. Such a scenario could get very complicated with legal issues, and we all know that whenever that happens, it almost always ends up the same: the parties involved go out of business paying legal fees while they fight with each other and the fans are left with a dead product. That very thing has already happened to some of the best computer wargames on the market (that were on the market I should say).

Any customer that isn't satisfied certainly has a right to complain. On the other hand, I really don't see any possibility of a move by Hasbro doing any of the ASL fans much good.
 

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It may be of interest that Brian posted on CSW that they're looking at hiring a design studio to do layout work on non-Gamers projects.

Advantages: they're deadline-driven folks with a contract. So stuff will be laid out in a timely fashion.

Disadvantages: cost (obviously) and we'd still be deep in the process, at least initially, although the company in question is owned by an ASLer so he's got a lot of knowledge how things should look.

Looks good right now, we're working out the details.
If this goes ahead, I'd guess that most of the ASL-release bottleneck will probably begin to be cleared and we can see faster release of products that are presently either on the drawing board, or ready for production.
 

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ya, I saw that posting on CSW about a new layout outfit, problem is, it might take a few month or more for the new outfit to get the hang of things. In the mean time, more people lose intrest in ASL and move on. This also means no product for a very long time.

Personnelly, I'm tired of deciphering 3rd party stuff, hell, I have SP 9, and did not spot the nifty equipment the germans had until a few days ago. Without counter art, and the standard layout scenarios become a chore to read. I suppose MMP is proud of that fact, but these 3rd party guys are the ones keeping ASL alive.

I guess my problem is, the guys who think MMP are a bunch of dirtbags stay out of the fight and I'm left to go it alone thats ok, and belive me, when I was at ASLOK two years ago, I told MMP to their faces they should be fired for gross incompetence.


Scott
 

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Wow, what a thread.

Let me see... I think the complaints boil down as follows:


1. We are taking too long to produce product, namely AOO.

2. We keep rearranging the product line.

3. Our website isn't updated regularly.

4. We screw up counters and don't proof anything.

Let me see if I can address some of this:

1. On AOO, I think we can agree. Our bottleneck has been layout, and if we are able so work out the deal as Brian stated on Consim, we'll be removing this roadblock soon. Then AOO comes out, J6 should be close behind it, and the little bit of work we need to do to BV's countersheets to remove the Finns should be a snap. If it's the person I recommended to Brian, I think everyone is going to be very happy.

2. OK, let me address the criticism of the ASL starter kit first. Not only was it a starter product, it was also a market test for the new style board. This board style was accepted by the public, which was good. Let me ask this question -- what if it wasn't? We wouldn't be introducing the Squad Leader boards to anyone, because no one would be using the starter kit boards for anything else and instead still be picking up mounted mapboards off our website. We had no idea if these boards would be accepted or not. Why anchor a core part of your product line in the product and take the risk? Then you'd be here criticizing us for putting them in the starter kits.

Yep, we are going to consolidate some of the product line, where it makes sense. But when we're done with the latest realignment, what you have is going to be around as long as we're producing ASL, which under our current agreement with Hasbro, is several more years, Mr. Holst's protestations and machinations not withstanding. The "two rulebooks" issue is more of a case of someone having to scrounge an old v1 because of our slow printing of the rulebook. That's going to change as soon as this printing, as the files will be updated and not need thorough proofing and the interest in ASL is going to mean more frequent printings. Our retail sales are WAY up across the board, and now that the starter kits are out,the demand for the rulebook is starting to pick up. I added two new retailers to our database this week, and three more prospects are in the works as we speak. And that is just THIS WEEK.

No we do not have any plans to re-publish the Journal 2 anytime soon. We want to get AOO, ASLRB, BV, Journal 6 out. That doesn't rule out that we'll never publish it again. I can certainly sympathize with the gentleman who is missing the erraticized counters. So, in that vein, I am offering my own second copy of Journal 2, still in shrinkwrap, to you. Contact me via PM.

3. Our website: It's out of date. That's why we're in the process of completely redesigning it, complete with some content management features that will help us update the system more efficiently, increase order tracking, automate our shipping process, you name it.

4. Now, finally, last but not least, our proofing on counters. Our last ASL release with counters, Operation Veritable, had one piece of counter errata. One. A CS number should have been red instead of black. By all accounts, these have been our crispest, most accurate counters do date. And we're shooting for no mistakes in AOO.

5. A few notes.

  • We're not sure what we're going to do about company updates with Consimworld changing. Many game companies, just like us, used it to update customers. We're not sure if we're going with an onsite forum or not right now. The ASLML hasn't been our product update forum in at least a year, but you're right, we need to address that in the site redesign.
  • We reprinted Doomed Battalions, not Croix De Guerre. If you're going to accuse us of screwing up something, at least make sure it's the right product, please. :rolleyes:
I think that's about all I can cover right now. I have to go back to studying my grad school finals. Everyone have a good evening.
 

Chas Argent

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In the mean time, more people lose intrest in ASL and move on.

You have proof of this, Scott? I would say things are just the opposite these days-there are clearly far more people playing ASL in this last year than I have ever seen, and this after many lean years. There's most definitely momentum building, and you have MMP and a dedicated ASL fan base to thank for that.

I guess my problem is, the guys who think MMP are a bunch of dirtbags stay out of the fight and I'm left to go it alone...

Or, more likely, there's only one of you. :cheeky:
 
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kazbah_707

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OK - as an almost-total newbie around here, the last thing I want to do is get in the middle of a flame-war between SGT_HOLST/Scott and da priest/ron, but I am confused by a comment by Scott.

"if I see another Brit CG I'll gag."

Well, as an ex-patriate Scot/Brit, I'm confused about where all these gag-producing Brit CGs are. Pegasus Bridge/A Bridge Too far in the HASL series - OK.

Oper. Veritable has Canadians, I believe, but they're not "Brits" per se.

As for the rest of the official AH/MMP CGs, I think the list goes:
Red Barricades: German vs. Russian
KGP I/II: German vs American
Blood Reef:Tarawa: Japanese vs. American
Oper. Watchtower: Japanese vs. American

Upcoming:
Valor of the Guards: German vs. Russian
Red October: German vs. Russian
Ortona/Little Stalingrad: I have to admit, I don't know the OOB here - maybe there's some Brits in there somewhere.

As far as Third Party Producers (TPP) go, there's a lot of stuff that I'll probably never see in my lifetime, but of what I do know:
Critical Hit:
Stonne 1940: Germans vs. French
Scotland the Brave I/II: Hey - another couple of those dreaded "Brit" CGs
All-American I/III: Hey - another trio of those Yankee CGs
Hell's Bridgehead: Germans vs. Russians

Heat of Battle:
Onslaught to Orsha: Germans vs. Russians
Beyond the Beachhead: Germans vs. Americans

So that's 2 or 3 out of 11 AH/MMP CGs, or maybe 4/5 out of 18, including TPPs. Please correct my arithmetic if I've missed anything significant.

Nobody (least of all me) is denying the contribution American manpower and industry made to the war. Nobody is denying the sacrifice that US soldiers made in the effort to liberate mainland Europe (particularly on Omaha Beach). Nobody is denying that without US involvement, it is unlikely that the war in Europe would have been won, or at least without a protracted years-long struggle. Nobody is denying the sacrifice that US soldiers made in the PTO.

Nonetheless, I hope you will understand that the British can be "a bit testy" at the suggestion that there wasn't really a war going on until the Americans entered it. British soldiers were dying while you practiced "isolation-ism" or whatever you called it.

To evaluate a Campaign-Game that involves British forces as gag-worthy suggests to me that either an incomplete understanding of the war exists, or an American-centric world-view that makes it gag-worthy for me.

Just my opinion...Alan

Alan
 

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SGT HOLST said:
Well Kommrade, your gonna have Ron Mosher, Keith D. and a host of other MMP supporters shout you down. So be ready for the back lash.
Just because I have some criticisms, doesn’t mean that I am not an MMP supporter. A critical reading of my post should make that clear. I have no axe to grind with anyone at MMP.

Also, I disagree with about 95% of your positions. You seem to be a bomb thrower that has no constructive input to offer. Your postings on the ASLML and forums proceed you. It is clear that you have an major axe to grind and personal animosity towards Brian, Curt, and/or Perry. :(

If you feel the need to throw bombs the ASLML is the place. :bandit:
 
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