Loquitor
Senior Member
I think a new poll January 1, 2005 would be in order. I can think of some things that would downgrade people's opinions and I can think of a couple of things that would upgrade too
What do you think of MMP's stewardship of ASL so far?
- Thread starter Dr Zaius
- Start date
csosus
Member
That would be just about everyone
WaterRabbit
Member
A Hummer would be more apropos. :devil:paulkenny said:
Personally, I think we have flogged this horse to death and beat its bones to powder.
Doughboy
Member
I remember about 20 years back that SPI and later TSR use to freely distribute stripped down games through mail order request or through some games magazines to introduce people to the concept and to also inform people about their product. The goal is to introduce only enough info to play a very simple game, get people familar to the system, and promote their products for those that got hooked. Heck I may still have this copy of Waterloo somewhere.WaterRabbit said:
Perhaps this is something that MMp should look at with their relationship to ArmchairGeneral. Produce a stripped down intro to ASL with about a page of rules, include a one page map and enough paper counters to play. Since a magazine like Armchairgeneral or some of those other history magazines out their have wider appeal the potential customer growth should not be underestimated. I suggest for auditing purposes a self address feedback card be included so that interest can be measured. This interest of course represent potential customers from which MMP can gauge their new customer estimates.
Needless to say that these concepts are not new, as most companies have done this; in fact this form of marketing is aggressively pursued on the internet in numerous sites such as computer gaming sites or for that matter a site such as this:
http://www.alanemrich.com/PGD/Week_03/PGD_What_is_a_Wargame.htm
Gen. blunder
Member
Yeah but probably we should realise that a game system like ASL is not easy to handle when you have to reduce production costs which is almost an obligation nowadays.paulkenny said:
Something like ten modules, 50, maps, 20 000 high quality counters, maps, scenario sheets, armory pages is pretty expensive to produce.
Probably ASL is somewhat a Dinosaure.
it breaks my heart to say that but economical constraints are what they are
-MMP policy for MMP has following two direction's
Making ASL more economicaly profitable considering the Board war game crisis (Funny that wargames with figurines don't seem to have this problem like DBA)by raising prices , the preorder system, unmounted maps, limited output of core modules.
-And trying to expand the number of ASLers with the starter Kit and the redesign of the content of the modules, like For King and country or BV3.
Obsiously the grognards that played Red Barricades , KGP I and II are waiting for new ASL experiences, they probably are a bit 'blasée' with classical 15 (467) infantry against 15 (666 or 458) infantry five tanks seize the village board on 4, 10, 24, the meet and potatoe of ASL scenario's.
And the other side some other grognards are staunchely opposed to any innovations (ASL and the Korean war are you insane or what , go and play Lock'n load)
My opinon is that the ASL journal scenario's output is excellent considering the ouput of the previous ASL annual's exept for Journal n 4 but look i remember some ASL annual 93 a and 93 b withe a Gavutu Tanabogo campaign played ont a overlay the size of a matchbox , (think about flanking maneuvers on that overlay so).
However the historical modules ouput are a more controversial .
I don't know the succes that BRT or Operation watchover got but well , i was a bit dissapointed especially by operation watchover and it's price.
BRT i see as a start , a module to get back into business sort of.
Operation Veritable however is not bad obviously not excellent
compared to red Barricades but why not, let's have some fun with open terrain , Jagpanther's , and 17 pounders AT guns.
Too much of the problem, is Squad Leader is what made the game famous, not ASL.
Too much of the problem is AH made this game, not MMP.
Too much of the problem is MMP is a small operation with a large operation requirememnt.
Too much of the problem is too many of us own the game, and want more new stuff and screw the new guy that needs the basics still.
So here we sit, with a game we all love, wanting more new stuff from a company barely able to produce the basic package let alone invent entirely new material, and wondering why there is a problem.
You can't turn back the clock though.
For my opinion, MMP should have made the ASL RB2 and continued to print it until they actually could not sell it.
Then, having already prepped the Beyond Valour Module, put it into print, and kept in print until that two was NOT selling.
They would then have had stable stockpiles of the two most gotta have em components.
They could have reinvented the original Squad Leader, same game, maybe a whole batch of scenarios, and called THAT ASL Starter Kit 1.
Everyone would have had the right boards and the right level of complexity and a batch o new scenarios.
A complete game experience, no need for additional Starter kits either.
I have to say guys, I think MMP is doing their best, but I will be blunt, if I had had the cash they started off with, and their opportunity, I would have likely done it a lot differently.
MMP seems to excell at doing everything the hard way.
They have to often gone with re inventing the wheel.
And like the old saying, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
I would rather give a person a copy of Squad Leader, and tell them, this is the basic nature of ASL. ASL is the deluxe advanced form of what you have here.
And it's true.
ASL would not be here if not for Squad Leader.
Too much of the problem is AH made this game, not MMP.
Too much of the problem is MMP is a small operation with a large operation requirememnt.
Too much of the problem is too many of us own the game, and want more new stuff and screw the new guy that needs the basics still.
So here we sit, with a game we all love, wanting more new stuff from a company barely able to produce the basic package let alone invent entirely new material, and wondering why there is a problem.
You can't turn back the clock though.
For my opinion, MMP should have made the ASL RB2 and continued to print it until they actually could not sell it.
Then, having already prepped the Beyond Valour Module, put it into print, and kept in print until that two was NOT selling.
They would then have had stable stockpiles of the two most gotta have em components.
They could have reinvented the original Squad Leader, same game, maybe a whole batch of scenarios, and called THAT ASL Starter Kit 1.
Everyone would have had the right boards and the right level of complexity and a batch o new scenarios.
A complete game experience, no need for additional Starter kits either.
I have to say guys, I think MMP is doing their best, but I will be blunt, if I had had the cash they started off with, and their opportunity, I would have likely done it a lot differently.
MMP seems to excell at doing everything the hard way.
They have to often gone with re inventing the wheel.
And like the old saying, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
I would rather give a person a copy of Squad Leader, and tell them, this is the basic nature of ASL. ASL is the deluxe advanced form of what you have here.
And it's true.
ASL would not be here if not for Squad Leader.
>Pretty soon all we will left cheering for MMP is your brother Wolkey.
Scottie, Scottie, Scottie... Anbody ever tell you not to go a gun fight equipped with a knife, or in your case a pea-shooter.
Just because you have a PC doesn't make you an educated person. Please, please, please check your spelling (or get your GED). You have a tool, please use it. You seem to think that the more you post, the more correct your posts become. Not so. Your 100+ messages on the EXACT SAME topic only proves how uneducated you are and how much you hate MMP.
I happen to like what MMP is doing. We WILL see a Rulebook #2, we WILL see a BV #3, we will see an AoO and VotG. It might not happen right away, but it will happen. That keeps the hobby alive rather than dying a slow death like many other series of games. Without MMP there wouldn't be any new players and your beloved ASLOK would have died long ago.
Scottie, Scottie, Scottie... Anbody ever tell you not to go a gun fight equipped with a knife, or in your case a pea-shooter.
Just because you have a PC doesn't make you an educated person. Please, please, please check your spelling (or get your GED). You have a tool, please use it. You seem to think that the more you post, the more correct your posts become. Not so. Your 100+ messages on the EXACT SAME topic only proves how uneducated you are and how much you hate MMP.
I happen to like what MMP is doing. We WILL see a Rulebook #2, we WILL see a BV #3, we will see an AoO and VotG. It might not happen right away, but it will happen. That keeps the hobby alive rather than dying a slow death like many other series of games. Without MMP there wouldn't be any new players and your beloved ASLOK would have died long ago.
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Uh Rob, what has MMP done this year and what is MMP doing? [please do not include the ASLSK we are talking ASL]
Scott
Scott
PVT Robert Wolkey said:
All that costs money. Printers want money up front or Net/30 if you're lucky.
Not a great suggestion as SL is not an introduction to ASL, whereas the Starter Kit is. You won't have to "unlearn" anything to go from ASLSK to ASL. You do, a good bit, to go from SL to ASL.
Ahh, the root of the problem. How much was the "cash they started off with"?
Pitman
Forum Guru
Brian, don't you understand? You are Bilbo Baggins and half the people here are the Sackville-Bagginses rooting around Bag End for the rumored "jools."
da priest
Member
Hmmm, wouldn't say half, about 4 seems more likely.pitman said:
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Please Mark, do not insult J R R Tokains wonderful works by comparing these bozo's to his characters.
Scott
Scott
pitman said:
Telling a person Squad Leader IS ASL would of course be folly.
But, you have to admit, Squad Leader won't get mistaken for any other game in all likelihood.
The infantry behave the same, tanks will look similar, artillery will be behave similar, in short, the game will introduce the "concepts" that grew into full bore ASL.
Now I KNOW I could tell a person, hey read this manual and play the scenarios and tell me if you understand what they are talking about.
And I would of course tell them, they were only reading the original simplified experience.
But when I used terms like TEM and TK and MP they would make sense to the person.
I don't think there would be a lot of painful unlearning.
Remember I said Squad Leader.
Not Squad Leader plus Cross of Iron plus Crescendo of Doom plus GI Anvil of Victory.
I just said Squad Leader.
But, you have to admit, Squad Leader won't get mistaken for any other game in all likelihood.
The infantry behave the same, tanks will look similar, artillery will be behave similar, in short, the game will introduce the "concepts" that grew into full bore ASL.
Now I KNOW I could tell a person, hey read this manual and play the scenarios and tell me if you understand what they are talking about.
And I would of course tell them, they were only reading the original simplified experience.
But when I used terms like TEM and TK and MP they would make sense to the person.
I don't think there would be a lot of painful unlearning.
Remember I said Squad Leader.
Not Squad Leader plus Cross of Iron plus Crescendo of Doom plus GI Anvil of Victory.
I just said Squad Leader.
>Uh Rob, what has MMP done this year and what is MMP doing? [please do not include the ASLSK we are talking ASL]
I remember receiving a Journal since last year. Yes, ASLSK is ASL. You might not think so, but if it gets ONE single person to start seeking opponents (and it has) than it is ASL. I've bought two copies and have played it with my 9 year old, so you can't tell me it's not ASL.
You are a Maypo child. You want your ASL fix RIGHT NOW! You have the patience of my 9 year old. Okay, I must apologize to my son as he has more patience. I look at the big picture like an adult. I see what MMP did in the past with Rulebook #2, Doomed Battalions #2, Beyond Valor #2, Journals 1-5, Action Packs, Historical modules, ASLSK, For King & Country, etc. Then I look to see what is coming in the future; Armies of Oblivion, Rulebook, BV #3, Valor of the Guards, Ortona, Journal #6, Pete Schelling Action Packs, etc.
I view the WHOLE picture, not what is happening RIGHT NOW! (I want my Maypo) I surely don't WHINE about it or make stupid, uneducated threats. Looking at the BIG picture gives you a reference of what is going to happen in the future. It's called history. You've probably read a few history books (or at least looked at the pictures). I see that MMP has done a good job in the past and will continue to do a good job in the future.
So, in short. Grow up! The military actually gives you a gun?
I remember receiving a Journal since last year. Yes, ASLSK is ASL. You might not think so, but if it gets ONE single person to start seeking opponents (and it has) than it is ASL. I've bought two copies and have played it with my 9 year old, so you can't tell me it's not ASL.
You are a Maypo child. You want your ASL fix RIGHT NOW! You have the patience of my 9 year old. Okay, I must apologize to my son as he has more patience. I look at the big picture like an adult. I see what MMP did in the past with Rulebook #2, Doomed Battalions #2, Beyond Valor #2, Journals 1-5, Action Packs, Historical modules, ASLSK, For King & Country, etc. Then I look to see what is coming in the future; Armies of Oblivion, Rulebook, BV #3, Valor of the Guards, Ortona, Journal #6, Pete Schelling Action Packs, etc.
I view the WHOLE picture, not what is happening RIGHT NOW! (I want my Maypo) I surely don't WHINE about it or make stupid, uneducated threats. Looking at the BIG picture gives you a reference of what is going to happen in the future. It's called history. You've probably read a few history books (or at least looked at the pictures). I see that MMP has done a good job in the past and will continue to do a good job in the future.
So, in short. Grow up! The military actually gives you a gun?
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
A Journal last year? But I'm talking this year. ASLSK? True it might get people involved, but where do they go from there? eBay to buy ASL stuff?Robert Wolkey said:
The ASLRB 2 was not needed, the pages could have been issued out, also, there are more mistakes with the ASLRB 2 then the ASLRB 1. What? I need J2 to replace the counters MMP screwed up in DB v2. BV2 has many counter screw ups IE the 37LATG for example. Only J1 and J2 are really worth their salt, the others are full of halfbaked scenarios. FKaC should have included WoA which is need to play alot of the older scenarios.Robert Wolkey said:
The Future? MMP cant even get the contract nailed down with the new layout outfit without taking months if not years to complete the proccess. So do not expect much from MMP for a long time to come.
Rob, your rosy view is very dishartning to say the least.
Scott
Robert Wolkey said:
You're right. MMP sucks. They take forever to print stuff. They have terrible production value. Their efforts aren't for sh*t. All their counters and modules are screwed up so bad no one can actually play them. I know I myself have given up on the game because my 37LATG counter from BV2 was misprinted (don't get me started on the uproar caused by all those DC counters with a set value of 30 printed on the back - I actually had to try to REMEMBER that they should be 36 instead!). In fact, I've spent months in expensive therapy sessions because of it. I'm a little better now, but at what cost to my family and friends? All those sessions with the therapist to help me deal with MMP not releasing two or three perfect products each and every business day. All those hours on the couch trying to figure out,
"Does MMP hate only me?"
"Is that why they don't release things in a timely fashion?"
"Is that why a dozen of the 5,000 counters in my last set had some errata?"
Thank God I've found others like me to complain incessantly about MMP. Thank God there are those out there in the forum who will drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on like a broken record about MMP's lack of commitment to me personally and to the game I alledgedly care for. And thank God there's a place like the War Forum where us right-thinking ASL'ers can get together to bemoan the state of the game at the expense of others having to read through our posts.
I have to go now. I have session scheduled with my therapist to help me deal with the misprinted box cover of BRT. I only hope I'm strong enough to move past this one and lead a normal life again.
- Rick
"Does MMP hate only me?"
"Is that why they don't release things in a timely fashion?"
"Is that why a dozen of the 5,000 counters in my last set had some errata?"
Thank God I've found others like me to complain incessantly about MMP. Thank God there are those out there in the forum who will drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on like a broken record about MMP's lack of commitment to me personally and to the game I alledgedly care for. And thank God there's a place like the War Forum where us right-thinking ASL'ers can get together to bemoan the state of the game at the expense of others having to read through our posts.
I have to go now. I have session scheduled with my therapist to help me deal with the misprinted box cover of BRT. I only hope I'm strong enough to move past this one and lead a normal life again.
- Rick
Gen. blunder
Member
The Also did products that where not to great like ASL journal 4 (compared to the other excellent ASL Journals)and trhee different products with old Squad leader scenario's to ASL format filled up with played on the same maps 4 and 7Robert Wolkey said:
.