Western front 1944-1945 Development Thread

Kraut

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Hmmm, this is an idea that would require quite a bit of OOB rewrite but would allow for greater WhatIf gameplay.

Ok, here is the idea: We all know that Hitler insited on raising new divisions instead of reinforcing the current divisions on the field, some argued that this was a bad decision because now the veteran divisions simply melted away for lack of replacements, so how about we let the player make these decisions?

We could deploy all of these new divisions without equipment in an unsupplied hex (the equipment thats brought on the field by these divisions would have to be counted onto the current replacement rates, requireing quite a bit of work), and when a player want's more divisions he simply disbands one or more of these, they will consume on-hand equipment and enter as reconstituted in the expected reinforcement queue.
If, on the other hand, he doesn't disband them, his on-map divisions will naturally have more replacements available :cool:
 

Dicke Bertha

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Yea good idea!

Or TO's giving the German player at start the option to go with
1) Hitler's historical new divisions.
2) Unhistorical rebuild of frontline divisions

1) would be given more replacements (less emphasis on training personel being absent) but with lower proficiency and support level - say Army and Force instead of Free? (Again I think the Allies should not be generally on Free, rather a generally on Army and Force)
2) would allow many-most German units to stay on Free support, otherwise a 3-tier Support (Free, Army, Force) would need to be in place

In all fairness, I'd like to see some choices for the Allies too - maybe something along the lines Patton vs Montgomery style. Supply or loss tolerances maybe could be variable, higher but during a shorter period.

Since I am no designer, maybe I am putting to much faith into the Editor and TO's (which I won't design anyway:))
 

Chuck

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Dicke Bertha said:
To reproduce the vastly increasing number of panzerfausts appearing for the Germans maybe their divisions need to have slots for HRS AT+ gradually increasing as HRS AT- decreases with time as Chuck and Mensch has mentioned.
Something along these lines would be best. It shouldn't go directly from AT- to AT+ though. That would go from an AT of 5 to an AT of 15. Looking at the detailed numbers, the advanced panzerfaust don't really start coming in mass until around November 1944. So that's when it should switch over to HRS AT. Then throw in some AT+ Teams in 1945 to represent the continued mass production and distribution of these weapons and some technical advacements the Germans were doing.

Keep the Allies with the AT- rifle squads throughout, as they don't see to have improved until after the war was over.
 

Telumar

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Kraut and Dicke, that sounds great. Looking forward to Mensch's opinion, it would be nice if he'd incorporate this.

Dicke Bertha said:
Since I am no designer, maybe I am putting to much faith into the Editor and TO's (which I won't design anyway:))
Loss intolerance setting is fixed for the duration of the scenario.
 

Veers

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The option of being able to pick between Hitler's foolishness and actually re-enforcing the existing divisions would be great. No more frustratingly seeing new divisions come onto the map while your front line divisions all become 1-1 speedbumps.
 

Kraut

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To add to the Panzerfaust/Bazooka debate I thought it might be a good idea to check out some of the other WW2 western front scenarios and see how they solved this, this is from the scenario 'Overlord' (D-Day landing - Sept. 1944 haf-day turns) from James D Burns

TO&E’s

The majority of time spent designing this scenario was spent researching TO&E’s. Unlike some designers, I feel an historical scenario should match history as close as possible. If when all is said and done the simulation doesn’t work, I feel the simulator should be tweaked in an effort to fix things, not historical fact.

When it came time to decide which squads to use, I based my decision on several things. First off I feel rifle squads and rifle RL squads are suited well towards WWII combat. I feel heavy squads should only represent squads with lots of additional firepower. Light rifle squads I interpret to be normal squads who do not have the supporting logistical network immediately available to re-supply munitions during the heat of combat. Another way to think of them would be “low ammo” for you ASL fans. I thought of Irregular squads as cooks/construction troops, etc… troops who could man defensive positions somewhat, but were useless on attack.

Due to the availability of the German panzerfaust, I made all German squads RL type squads. I felt the extra RL type squads in the units that had few or none would balance out the missing panzerchrecks overall. For the allies, their squads are basic types, with 1 RL type for every 5 bazookas or PIAT’s. I did this since I found large numbers of bazooka squads acted independently and were not directly assigned to a specific squad.
His choice of squads (replacements / turn):

US

LRS: 16
LRS AT-: 12
RS: 40
HRS: 2
SMG: 2
SMG AT-: 2

Germany:
LRS: 12
LRS AT-: 10
RS AT-: 40
HRS AT-: 1
HRS AT: 1
SMG: 1
SMG AT-: 8
AMG AT: 10
 

Menschenfresser

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On the AT Controversy:
Let me propose a simple fix for the German side and a poll for Allied side:
-For the Germans, I'd like to reduce the starting AT Teams to AT- Teams. In August large amounts of AT Teams would start flowing in. And in November, it would switch again to AT+ Teams. Whatever each division starts with in AT- Teams they would have authorized for the other two. I'm inclined to disregard the PzF150/250 appearing in March since they arrived in limited numbers.
-This will also require that divisions arriving after these dates (Aug44 & Nov44) have their TO&E changed so they arrive with this new equipment.

Allied poll:
There's only one way to test if the Allied side is too strong AT-wise. Are they over-effective in killing German tanks. I don't think we should compare inf to inf. We need to look at how effective they are at their jobs. With this in mind, do we really need to make their tank killing ability less effective. Would turning HRS AT- into HRSs and adding in AT (whatever) Teams do this, or would it produce the same effects?

My vote is to change the Germans and then see how it works from there.

##################################################

On French ports and supply:
As of the Allied breakout, the Allies were short of their estimated supply tonage. Bradley ordered that Brittany be taken for its ports, but so much as I've read, this move has been severely questioned because of its cost and actual effects. Antwerp was the biggest gain in this respect. I've modelled supply by using supply radius increases when ports are captured rather than raise supply levels. As the scenario stands, Antwerp is the big one! It is the only other supply point in NW Europe for the Allies. As is, I think it is a harsh system for the Allies, requiring them to capture as many ports as possible. I do think I need to double the supply units the Allies receive as a result of capturing Calais, Cherbourg and Brest - raising it to six.

####################################################

Check on the PAK 40s. I'll make the necessary changes.

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On new divisions vs reinforcements:
After the Allies breakout, new divisions will be of more use to the German player than reinforcements. Kraut, your idea is sweet, except for the fact that reconstituting units only need a certain percent of their first line equipment to reconstitute. So these new divisions might appear severely lacking equipment. Especially those arriving later.

I think what we need to concentrate on is getting the scenario (more or less as designed) working and playing properly. Once we get to a certain point of satisfaction and know how it works, we can start playing with the model.

####################################################

No one's mentioned the air units so far?

####################################################

I'd like to redo the east front/west front interchange dramatically. This is a pretty easy thing to do if someone else can come up with the unit interchange. IDEA:
-Two models for units that start on the east front and can be called to the west front & units that start on the west front and are called to the east front.
-Give the German player several TOs to call units to the west front from the east front at a VP loss.
-Give the German player TOs to cancel units withdrawing to the east front at a VP loss.
-The VP loss simulating Russian advances.

Are there any suggestions for units/corps/armies that Hitler could have ordered to the west front from the east? Time line for such TOs to appear? VP cost? For the west front units moving east, I can go initially with what Trey put in place.

We don't have to do this...just an idea. This would give the German player some choices.

Perhaps we could even do this with equipment. Have a TO to disband an equipment store unit to simulate equipment diverted to the west as opposed to the east. Dunno...

####################################################

IMPORTANT:
On the jeep issue. What recon percent should I be shooting for? That's what I'm going to go by when reducing jeeps.

####################################################
 

Menschenfresser

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PS: I think you've hit on a replacement error with Trey's design. He has no replacements coming in for the 75mm AT gun, but 22 oer turn for the PAK 97/38. Whereas the PAK 40 is the standard gun and the 38 is used in west wall garrisons, etc. I think it should be the opposite. No replacements for the 38 & 22 per turn for the 40.
 

Kraut

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Menschenfresser, could you upload a scenario dump from the latest version? Than I could run it through my replacement analyzer, I would do the dump myself, but as I am still busy reinstalling everything after my HD failed, I haven't gotten VMWare running yet, and therefore no Win98 to dump scenarios.
I think you still had the ability to do scenario dumps?
 

Menschenfresser

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I can't do scen dumps since about January when I purchased my new computer with WinXP. I've been using a dump of the original 1.1 to look over events, etc.

Kraut, I haven't made any changes to the replacements yet since 1.1. So I guess you could use it if all you're looking at are replacements.

CORRECTION: It's a dump of 2.0
 
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Kraut

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OK, I'll be able to do dumps again soon, just have to reinstall Win98 first :)

As soon as I got that up and running again I'll post a replacement dump.
 

Chuck

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Menschenfresser said:
On the AT Controversy:
Let me propose a simple fix for the German side and a poll for Allied side:
-For the Germans, I'd like to reduce the starting AT Teams to AT- Teams. In August large amounts of AT Teams would start flowing in. And in November, it would switch again to AT+ Teams. Whatever each division starts with in AT- Teams they would have authorized for the other two. I'm inclined to disregard the PzF150/250 appearing in March since they arrived in limited numbers.
-This will also require that divisions arriving after these dates (Aug44 & Nov44) have their TO&E changed so they arrive with this new equipment.

Allied poll:
There's only one way to test if the Allied side is too strong AT-wise. Are they over-effective in killing German tanks. I don't think we should compare inf to inf. We need to look at how effective they are at their jobs. With this in mind, do we really need to make their tank killing ability less effective. Would turning HRS AT- into HRSs and adding in AT (whatever) Teams do this, or would it produce the same effects?

My vote is to change the Germans and then see how it works from there.
Yeah, let's try just changing the Germans for now. I don't think the AT- value is capable of destroying Panthers or Tiger IIs - but it will destroy some of German's lesser vehicles.

IMPORTANT:
On the jeep issue. What recon percent should I be shooting for? That's what I'm going to go by when reducing jeeps.
Not really sure. In Gothic Line 1944 I went for about equal values for the Germans and Allies. I ended up adding some motorcycle squads to the Germans to help them out.
 

Chuck

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Menschenfresser said:
PS: I think you've hit on a replacement error with Trey's design. He has no replacements coming in for the 75mm AT gun, but 22 oer turn for the PAK 97/38. Whereas the PAK 40 is the standard gun and the 38 is used in west wall garrisons, etc. I think it should be the opposite. No replacements for the 38 & 22 per turn for the 40.
That looks to be the problem. Fixing this will improve German AT performance a good deal during the course of the scenario.
 

JAMiAM

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Kraut said:
OK, I'll be able to do dumps again soon, just have to reinstall Win98 first :)

As soon as I got that up and running again I'll post a replacement dump.
Of course, if you had TOAW III, you could do a dump in XP...:devious:
 

Kraut

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JAMiAM said:
Of course, if you had TOAW III, you could do a dump in XP...:devious:
Of course, if TOAW III wouldn't have changed the dump format my program would still work with those dumps :devious:

I tried it with a dump I got, first thing I noticed was that TOAW III now uses 0x0d0x0a for a newline, and no longer just 0x0a as CoW, I could have corrected that, but who knows what else has changed ... I'll just stick with CoW for the moment beeing, to lazy for anything else, it's simply too hot for that (went over 30° celsius today) :clown:

Anyway, here is the dump from 2.1(f) and the replacement table, at the moment it doesn't include any replacement drops for the germans, simply tell me when they are supposed to happen and I'll add those aswell. In the meantime, feel free to compare the equipment values with what was available to either force historically (if you have some accurate figures)
 

Kraut

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Oh, by the way, here is the description again of what the replacement table actually means:

 

ralphtrickey

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Kraut said:
Of course, if TOAW III wouldn't have changed the dump format my program would still work with those dumps :devious:

I tried it with a dump I got, first thing I noticed was that TOAW III now uses 0x0d0x0a for a newline, and no longer just 0x0a as CoW, I could have corrected that, but who knows what else has changed ... I'll just stick with CoW for the moment beeing, to lazy for anything else, it's simply too hot for that (went over 30° celsius today) :clown:

Anyway, here is the dump from 2.1(f) and the replacement table, at the moment it doesn't include any replacement drops for the germans, simply tell me when they are supposed to happen and I'll add those aswell. In the meantime, feel free to compare the equipment values with what was available to either force historically (if you have some accurate figures)
:devil: Well, it is a DOS program, not a Unix one<g> I had problems displaying the output file in some programs, so if figured I'd fix that bug.

That was the big change. I think I also added the Unit number in parentheses after the Unit name. I don't think I changed anything else major. I cna check if you're really feeing that lazy:rolleyes:
 

Telumar

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Menschenfresser said:
I'd like to redo the east front/west front interchange dramatically. This is a pretty easy thing to do if someone else can come up with the unit interchange. IDEA:
-Two models for units that start on the east front and can be called to the west front & units that start on the west front and are called to the east front.
-Give the German player several TOs to call units to the west front from the east front at a VP loss.
-Give the German player TOs to cancel units withdrawing to the east front at a VP loss.
-The VP loss simulating Russian advances.

Are there any suggestions for units/corps/armies that Hitler could have ordered to the west front from the east? Time line for such TOs to appear? VP cost? For the west front units moving east, I can go initially with what Trey put in place.
Okay, i have done some online research (hope the sources are reliable) on the east-west traffic and put together a chart in word format, but with no particular order in unit name/type and date and yet just for the divisions. I can do this also for the higher level formations and independent brigades etc., when there is need. Though it might help this issue. I hope it's complete and i don't have missed something (almost sure i have :( ). I have not yet checked if the entire scenario OOB and reinforcement/withdraw schedule fits with my chart, but have already found two slight errors. More to come. Comments and suggestions please..

Edit: I removed the double entry for 560.GrenDiv/VG Div. Thanks Bertha.
 
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Kraut

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Menschenfresser said:
Are there any suggestions for units/corps/armies that Hitler could have ordered to the west front from the east? Time line for such TOs to appear? VP cost? For the west front units moving east, I can go initially with what Trey put in place.

We don't have to do this...just an idea. This would give the German player some choices.

Perhaps we could even do this with equipment. Have a TO to disband an equipment store unit to simulate equipment diverted to the west as opposed to the east. Dunno...
OK, here is what we could do: We install some EEV increasing locations along the allied historical path of advance, and should they climb over a specific level earlier than they should if everything goes historically, we give the germans a TO to bring in reinforcements that are sheduled to appear later right away, at a VP cost. Should he not select those TOs the reinforcements will appear at their historical date.
That would allow the german player to quickly get several reinforcements should the allies advance faster than historically, but at a cost.
Should the allies advance slower than historically the reinforcemets will be delayed but the german player gets bonus VP because the east front has now more troops and will hold out better.
 
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