Western front 1944-1945 Development Thread

[Veers]

Also, after looking at the WONDERFUL!! excel sheet from Telumar, it looks like the FR Exp. Force's HQ is not withdrawn (which would explain why it is still around in my games :laugh Shouldn't be hard to fix that, eh Mensch.

 

[Telumar]

Guten Morgen!

- all units start as untried, that will have their proficiency going up/down by up to 33% during first combat, often producing wired results (from 50% proficiency panzer division to 100% SEC units ) Make all units veteran from the beginning

Good point, though i think we shouldn't make all units veteran. Late game german divisions, static infantry divisions in France should remain untried.

- it seems that the german artillery is 'hidden' inside the divisions, this will seriously hamper the defender as the artillery would therefor be unable to support other divisions. I have never tried this, but would replacing the Infantry symbol with Infantry Artillery help?

How do you mean it would help? If you mean that Inf.-Art. units are capable of artillery operations like a regular artillery unit, yes. Worth a try, but i fear this could lead to a slaughter, it would also drain more supply from the units, which could finally result in more evaporations. Also see Veers post on this. (you all posted when i was typing..)

- The Allies have Rifle AT- and HRifle AT- as their main squads, this gives them a too great AT capability for their infantry I think. Sure, they had the Bazooka/Piat, but it wasn't as widespread nor as good as the german Panzerfaust/Panzerschreck. Either beef up german infantry to HeavyRifleAT or lower the allied infantry to the normal non-AT version

Then they should be assigned heavy AT rifles i think.

Jeeps are modeled too strong in TOAW, they are as good as a Rifle Squad or a Heavy MG in their combat value and thereby add too much firepower to the Allies, while most of the Jeeps were infact used for transportation. [...] I suggest replacing Jeeps with Light Scout Cars

Plus the inreased recon value (see my post above) this is too much, agree. Also i suggest to reduce the number of these vehicles in the divisions.

- Put a +distance hex on the english airfields to realistically reduce the range of the aircrafts operating from there

Jup. Thanks for your advices, any help and advice is welcome.

EDIT:
With the victory points i agree with you, Veers.

 

[Kraut]

Another thing I just saw: capturing several ports will increase allied supply, I think thats a bogus solution, as the allies didnt get more supply, but only a supply source closer to the front. So instead of increasing their supply I would just stick a supply source in those locations. And on minor ports I would put a +distance hex on that supply point, which will reduce the supply output from that port, simulating a minor port that isn't able to unload much supplies.

The thing about arty being 'hidden' inside of the Divisions, is that it is that division's organic arty regt. so how often would it end up supporting another division? That is what the other division's arty is for, as well as Korps arty elements, which Mensch asked about, but never followed up on...

Ahem, we are talking about german 1944 arty here, not soviet 1941
I am pretty sure that division A's artillery would support divison B should the allies attack there, the supply loss would be unintended but unavoidable in the current TOAW model.
The better solution would obviously be to seperate the arty from the division and make it a seperate unit, but that would obviously require quite a bit of work

 

[Dicke Bertha]

Regarding Normandy as such, as far as I understand it, the actual historical disproportionate strenghts lay not in the actual number of divisions, but rather the many Allied corps assets, shifting the number strength ratio above 2:1. The few aces the Germans had was indeed Korpsartillerie and some tank and AT units. Seems to me a fair thing would be to have Germans have these independent artillery represented, and also their divisions should be able to cooperate better than the Allies. Given the rather slow advance on the westfront historically - until things simply collapsed - I think that increased attrition divider could be a way to go, or house rules limiting the number of rounds per turn. The only healfhearted attempt I had at this scenario (vs Mensch) saw the German front in Italy being quickly devoured and Overlord rather easily repelled - quite the opposite from what happened historically.

Not adding much here I am afraid, but I really think your effort is swell - TOAW needs this scenario, and needs it to be fixed! :thumup:

 

[Menschenfresser]

I agree Kraut that giving the allies a supply boost from capturing ports is odd, but this is coupled with an inevitable supply drop that happens several times which will cripple the Allied advance. I think this is in place to force the Allied player to conquer all of France (or at least the coast), and not just drop in at Calais and head east. For the most part, given the dense road/rail net in France, one could pull this off without more than one supply point, I think. There might be a better solution here...

I think the German artillery situation needs to be addressed. For the most part, the largest gun integrated into the actual divisions is the 150mm ER and stronger divisions only have 12 of them. This is one area where I could use some help. I don't mind altering the OOB, but I could use some direction. If anyone has knowledge of German Artillery on the west front and Italy, let me know. Or has a handy OOB sitting around.

I agree about the jeeps. The average American division has 400ish jeeps. How low should we go? We could move them into the Corps HQ, but then every corps HQ would have a shite-load of jeeps. Probably just dropping them is best. If recon is an issue, replacing them with Lt Scout Cars won't solve it.

On the HRS AT- issue: While I think you might have something here, this will be farther down on the to-do list. The COW equipment doc says that HRS AT- has an RPG while the plain jane version does not. This would mean we would need to incorporate AT- Teams. Limited research tells me that by '44 the US Companies had 5 "very light" rpgs w/ more available from battalion. That certainly isn't 1 per squad, but is around 50%. So what if we reduced allied divisions to HRS as the standard squad and then added an additional 50% of their HRSs as AT- Teams? Or maybe 50% is too much, but something like that: 30-40%?

Distance hexes: agreed.

Untried vs vet: Barring someone going through the OOB and researching which divisions had seen combat (and weren't completely rebuilt as a result). I'm going to trust Trey on this one. And division with the 'RES' or 'SEC' label will be left untried. The rest I'm going to change to veteran. Keep in mind, the original design does have divisions at varying proficiency levels.

Following from the previous paragraph, once I've done the above, I'm going to change all divisions to the division unit typology. I understand that he's marked them out based on what they were doing at the time, but that all changes once the allies hit Normandy (or Calais )

The Gustav line situation is because I had to recombine broken down units in order to delete the Italians. These will be fixed eventually.

German interdiction: agreed.

Probably more, but I've got housework to do. Once that's done, I'll begin work on some of these suggestions and take a look at the event excel.

 

[Telumar]

Another thing I just saw: capturing several ports will increase allied supply, I think thats a bogus solution, as the allies didnt get more supply, but only a supply source closer to the front. So instead of increasing their supply I would just stick a supply source in those locations. And on minor ports I would put a +distance hex on that supply point, which will reduce the supply output from that port, simulating a minor port that isn't able to unload much supplies.

You are absolutely right, Stefan. Will movement be affected for entering a 'distant' location? I know from wintergewitter that the Gumrak airfield also is a distant location, and i believe i have read somewhere that it can be entered without additional movement costs. But i am not sure at all.

Ahem, we are talking about german 1944 arty here, not soviet 1941
I am pretty sure that division A's artillery would support divison B should the allies attack there, the supply loss would be unintended but unavoidable in the current TOAW model.
The better solution would obviously be to seperate the arty from the division and make it a seperate unit, but that would obviously require quite a bit of work

But you will have a map stacked with artillery regiments then (approx. 60-70 taking into account the number of german divisions), especially towards the end of the game when many german divisions will probably have been evaporated. The Infantry artillery unit solution would be better i think except the supply drain issue, but then what should be the reason to deny this capability to the allied forces? And what about the Panzer divisions? Give them the armoured artillery icon??
A solution could be to take advantage of toaw3's new feature of scenario specific graphics in replacing the Infantry-Artillery and Armoured Artillery icons with the standard icons for Infantry and Armour, and also the paras and glider divs - they could use the para and glider artillery icon, respectively the substitution for them. Would also contribute to a smoother look. Still the supply drain problem remains.. Your thoughts?

I second the idea of replacing the jeeps with light scout cars, i tested it in the editor (COW version) and the recon value would drop at around 50-55 Light scout cars under the 99% value. What would you suggest should be the number of Light scout cars assigned?

I also discoverd that some, if not all, german Panzer divisions have more tanks assigned than authorized. Wasn't there an issue with the replacement calculation?

Note: With 'you' i mean not just specifically Kraut but all of you.

Edit: I agree with Mensch that the events should be fixed first..he was posting while i have been writing

 

[Menschenfresser]

IIRC, distance hexes only effect air range and supply (if there's a supply point in it, which is why Wintergewitter has the airport in a distance hex).

Anyone want to chime in on what distance value should be used with UK airfields?

 

[Menschenfresser]

In looking over the air ranges a second time, should we really make the distanced? At 15 kilometers per hex, the tip of England would be on the map. Of course, not all airfields are in southern England, but what this scenario presents is an abstraction. IIRC, bomber bases were further north so those could have a distance value, but then we'd require an honor rule that they couldn't be moved to one of the other airfields.

 

[Kraut]

The problem is that the fighter bases were indeed in the south, but spread along the entire southern england, from east to west. Now while they all would be in range of the Normandy (which was one of the reasons why this landing zone was choosen) they wont all be in range to say Dunkirque.

What I would do: (see attached image)

Simply simulating England by prolonging the airfield-line to the length of England and adding a second line above the first one for the bombers. Add a houserule that the bonbers should only operate from the above airfields as the fighter fields are not suited for the medium and heavy bombers.

 

[JAMiAM]

- several units start as untried, that will have their proficiency going up/down by up to 33% during first combat, often producing wired results (from 50% proficiency panzer division to 100% SEC units ) Make all units veteran from the beginning

Actually, the range is +/- 33% of the original untried proficiency. So, a 60% prof unit would be able to range from 40 - 80, upon seeing the elephant. I don't recall for sure, but I think that there was some weighting of the distribution to keep it more generally near the nominal.

- it seems that the german artillery is 'hidden' inside the divisions, this will seriously hamper the defender as the artillery would therefor be unable to support other divisions. I have never tried this, but would replacing the Infantry symbol with Infantry Artillery help?

This is usually a bad idea. The Infantry Artillery units are treated as artillery, which means that they do not advance after combat. Further, though they might lend their artillery strength to nearby attacks or defenses, this can be grossly manipulated by the enemy, and your entire line's readiness and supply would be drained in no time.

 

[Menschenfresser]

I agree with James here on the artillery issue. One easy fix (which of course leads to different complications) would be to draw out A) all or B) part of the heavy artillery in each division and put in the Korps HQs. But there are two ways of doing this:
-Putting the extracted arty into each division's Korps HQ as OOB relationships stand when the scenario starts.
-Or create a pool of artillery during the extraction phase and then evenly distribute it across all Korps HQs.

I don't think this would thow the balance of the scenario too far outta whack because the Allies get tons of independent artillery throughout the scenario.

 

[JAMiAM]

But you will have a map stacked with artillery regiments then (approx. 60-70 taking into account the number of german divisions), especially towards the end of the game when many german divisions will probably have been evaporated. The Infantry artillery unit solution would be better i think except the supply drain issue, but then what should be the reason to deny this capability to the allied forces? And what about the Panzer divisions? Give them the armoured artillery icon??
A solution could be to take advantage of toaw3's new feature of scenario specific graphics in replacing the Infantry-Artillery and Armoured Artillery icons with the standard icons for Infantry and Armour, and also the paras and glider divs - they could use the para and glider artillery icon, respectively the substitution for them. Would also contribute to a smoother look. Still the supply drain problem remains.. Your thoughts?

Sounds like a lot of effort that will only make the situation worse. My suggestion is to break out the divisional level artillery assets but to combine them into corps level support units. Either into the Corps HQ's or separate ad hoc artillery units. Having a bunch of small regiments running around will probably just lead to them being evaporated by Allied air attacks, either direct or interdiction. The Infantry Artillery icon use is the worst of all possible "fixes" for the problem.

I second the idea of replacing the jeeps with light scout cars, i tested it in the editor (COW version) and the recon value would drop at around 50-55 Light scout cars under the 99% value. What would you suggest should be the number of Light scout cars assigned?

Just a seat of my pants conversion on this is for every 6 jeeps in a unit, use 2 light scout cars, and 2 trucks. This would bring the engine's behavior more in line with the doctrinal use of the jeeps.

I also discoverd that some, if not all, german Panzer divisions have more tanks assigned than authorized. Wasn't there an issue with the replacement calculation?

Yes, this is a major issue. You should either bring the authorized levels up to the assigned levels, or the assigned levels down to the authorized. The former will keep the same initial strength to the units, and the latter will hamstring them. I can't vouch for the TO&E accuracy of the existing units, but I'm guessing that the former would be the choice for this scenario, as once the battle commences, casualties mount, and stragglers straggle, the replacements are going to have a hard enough time keeping up to even authorized levels.

 

[Telumar]

This is usually a bad idea. The Infantry Artillery units are treated as artillery, which means that they do not advance after combat.

Oh, i didn't know about that. But that's why we have you, James. So let's forget about that.

 

[Menschenfresser]

Changes so far...

Changes to West Front 2.1(c):
-Added two Allied rail repair brigades with 125 RR squads each (just enough to get them 99% allowing them to be divided in half for 50% or in thirds for 33%). 1st Rail Repair will appear in England on T8 and can be shipped to the Allied invasion hex when necessary. 2nd Rail Repair Bde starts in Italy.
-German bombers all set to rest (changed from interdiction).
-Moved the German 77. Inf Div to Countances so that it can (if willing) participate in the defense of Cherbourg. (My experience was that it couldn't make it there before the Allies sealed it off).
-Changed the name of XIII Korps to LXXIV Korps as I don't think XIII arrived until Dec.
-Expanded the fortifications at Brest, Lorient, St. Nazaire & Dinard to make them costlier to capture.
-Also placed German supply points in Brest, Lorient and St. Nazaire to expand upon the previous change.
-Expanded UK airfields per Kraut's suggestion, adding in separate fields for bombers. (An honor rule will accompany this change.)
-Corrected Fr Exp Force withdraw events. All 4 divisions and HQ should withdraw now. (Previously the 3rd Inf Div and HQ didn't have events to take them out of the game.)
-Corrected number of panzers in German divisions where assigned levels were much higher than authorized levels. I raised all authorized levels to assigned levels. (Thanks JAMIAM).

Changes to West Front 2.1(a):
-Attrition Divider is now 12
-Allied Loss Intolerance is now 125%
-Wilhelmshaven & Hague port events were totally screwed. These have been fixed (I think).
-Calais & Dunkerque port repair event did not have the usual 4 turn delay & 26 turn range. Fixed.
-Brittany TO wasn't being cancelled because 'Coast' was capitalized in the TO event, but not in the events that cancelled it if another invasion location was chosen by the player. (I've checked the rest of the TO cancel events and can't see to find any other errors that would lead to some not being cancelled. If you're sure that you've seen others remain, let me know).
-Cleaned up parts of the map that always annoyed me (road, river, rail spurs).
-Corrected (I think) the Axis replacement reductions. For every 4 point increase in the EEV up to 68, the Axis replacement rate is multiplied by .95.
-Allied supply radius has been reduced from 5 to 3. (Axis remains the same at 5).
-German rail repair has been reduced from 20 to 1.
-German rail damage is 0%, meaning that if the Germans happen to retake a rail hex, they won't destroy it.
-Allied rail repair has been reduced from 20 to 3. This should slow the Allied advance some by hindering supply.
-Allied rail damage is now 75%, meaning there is a 25% chance that any rail hex they take won't be damaged.
-Forgot one. I Pz Corp, II Pz Corps, & XLVII Pz Corps start the game static and will be released on T8.
-Fixed German Offensive event schedule. The Germans now get a shock bonus 28 turns after initiating their offensive TO. It is reduced 29 turns after and is gone 30 turns after.

2.0:
-Italian Partisans removed.
-EDIT: Also recombined several German and Allied divisions in Italy. These will be redivided once we reach a satisfactual initial version.

 

[Veers]

Yeah, so put the Arty in the korps HQs.
Jam's jeep to truck/scout car conversion is good.
Kraut's idea on England is good, that house rule is simple, and therefore good.
Distribute the Arty evenly across all Korps HQs (with the exception of the Reserve Korps HQs). Reason being: You have the reserve Inf Pool, the VG Pool, the Reserve Panzer pool, and the reserve SS pool, all with units that have arty that don't have an attached HQ to put it into.
And, of course, as Jam says, raise the auth level of tanks to the assigned on those Panzer Divisions.

Woot! My fav. scenario is going to get fixed!

EDIT: Figures, all already dealt with as I typed...:laugh:

Should France not have two RR Repair units? Thoughts on that?

 

[Menschenfresser]

Damn! I don't think Trey's port-supply event matrix is working correctly. So far as I understand it, if a port is demolished it's supply point is delayed until it is repaired. I just did a test where I used the Allied invasion force to take all the ports. Those listed as being 'demolished' still had their supply points. Which makes me suspect that the supply increase isn't working correctly either (which is even a bigger worry). Stay with me and I'll try to explain his event structure.

Event 1: Brest is captured - news only - Allies occupy hex.
Event 2: Brest port facilities have been demolished - triggered by event 1 - 33% chance of firing.
Event 3: Allied supply raised by 5 - triggered by event 1
Event 4: Activated by event 2 - Cancels event 3
Event 5: Activated if event 2 fires - delayed by 4 turns with a range of 26 turns - raises Allied supply by 5.
Event 6: Triggered by event 1 - places a supply point at Brest.
Event 7: Triggered if event 2 fires - cancels event 6
Event 8: Activated by event 5 - places a supply point at Brest.

This is the chain in a nutshell. All port cities seem to have this event matrix associated with them. Problem is, I don't know if this system works. What is supposed to happen: When the Allies capture Brest, they get a supply point and a supply boost, unless the port is demolished (of which there is a 33% chance of this happening). If it is demolished then both the supply point and supply boost are rescheduled to appear between 4 to 26 turns later.

I've noticed some other errors in this matrix, i.e. values left out.

EDIT: Veers, why don't you think the reserve Korps HQs should get some of the artillery? BTW, I'm thinking of taking out all 150mm ER guns (even authorized guns without any assigned ones) and moving them to the corps. They comprise most of the larger guns in the divisions. At the start of the scenario there are 559 of them on map. From the editor, their are a total of 1136 (I think) assigned to units in total. Since I don't want to double the number of 150mm guns on the map at the start of the scenario, I will have to put some in the reserve HQs and see if I can have these HQs arrive on map when they did historically. Seems Trey didn't bother, but just dumped them all on map at the start.

 

[Veers]

Damn! I don't think Trey's port-supply event matrix is working correctly. So far as I understand it, if a port is demolished it's supply point is delayed until it is repaired. I just did a test where I used the Allied invasion force to take all the ports. Those listed as being 'demolished' still had their supply points. Which makes me suspect that the supply increase isn't working correctly either (which is even a bigger worry). Stay with me and I'll try to explain his event structure.

Event 1: Brest is captured - news only - Allies occupy hex.
Event 2: Brest port facilities have been demolished - triggered by event 1 - 33% chance of firing.
Event 3: Allied supply raised by 5 - triggered by event 1
Event 4: Activated by event 2 - Cancels event 3
Event 5: Activated if event 2 fires - delayed by 4 turns with a range of 26 turns - raises Allied supply by 5.
Event 6: Triggered by event 1 - places a supply point at Brest.
Event 7: Triggered if event 2 fires - cancels event 6
Event 8: Activated by event 5 - places a supply point at Brest.

This is the chain in a nutshell. All port cities seem to have this event matrix associated with them. Problem is, I don't know if this system works. What is supposed to happen: When the Allies capture Brest, they get a supply point and a supply boost, unless the port is demolished (of which there is a 33% chance of this happening). If it is demolished then both the supply point and supply boost are rescheduled to appear between 4 to 26 turns later.

I've noticed some other errors in this matrix, i.e. values left out.

EDIT: Veers, why don't you think the reserve Korps HQs should get some of the artillery? BTW, I'm thinking of taking out all 150mm ER guns (even authorized guns without any assigned ones) and moving them to the corps. They comprise most of the larger guns in the divisions. At the start of the scenario there are 559 of them on map. From the editor, their are a total of 1136 (I think) assigned to units in total. Since I don't want to double the number of 150mm guns on the map at the start of the scenario, I will have to put some in the reserve HQs and see if I can have these HQs arrive on map when they did historically. Seems Trey didn't bother, but just dumped them all on map at the start.

If that's how you're going to use the Resevre HQs, then i retract my previous statement. That sounds like a good plan.

Why move the 77th to Cherbourg? If someone wants the 77th to be in Cherbourg, they can put it there...or just going for historical flare?

 

[Menschenfresser]

Yea, I suppose it isn't necessary given the Germans have 7 turns to get ready for the invasion. I'll probably put it back. I just happened to be flipping through a book and saw it there on a map.

Also, here's my list of reserve HQs and when they arrived:
-LXXXV: July 44
-LXIV: SE France until Jan 1945
-LXIII: Nov 1944
-LIII: Nov 1944
-XXXIX Pz Korps: Jan 1945
-LXVI Pz Korps: Can't find mention that it fought in the west, only in the east.
-LVIII Pz Korps: July 20, 1944
-LXII: S. France until Aug 44
-XC: Nov 1944
-XIII SS: Aug 1944
-XII SS: Aug 1944
-XIV SS: Nov 1944

Missing or changes:
-Can't find XVIII SS in the scenario. It arrive in German in Dec 1944
-XIII (which had been in Normandy before I renamed the unit & Korps) arrived Dec 1944.

 

[Kraut]

On the supply issue, this is my idea of how we could change the current situation.

Assumption: the idea that the allied supply increases or decreases is inaccurate, their supply level should remain the same, not the amount of supply was the problem, it was the distribution.

Solution: remove all allied supply increase or decrease events, group all harbors into one of 3 categories, minor, normal and major port. Put an allied supply point in each port hex, with a -2 reduction (explanation soon) for minors, -1 for normal and zero for major ports.

-2 reduction would be: if the allied supply has a range of 10 after which it's reduced by 1 level, we put a +20 distance hex into that port to drop the initial supply distribution by 2 level.

The allied supply point will be placed in the port hex after the allies capture it, it will be delayed for 1-3(??) turns if the germans fail to demolit it, or XX turns later if the port facilities were destroyed.

We could also assume that the entire rail system was so badly damaged (by allied pre-invasion interdiction and strategic bombing, aswell as systematically destruction by retreating german forces) as to a point where it simply was in an unusable state for the allies. Therefore we must disconnect the rail system from the allied supply points, as otherwise the TOAW supply system would simply supply every rail connected hex with max. supply level, and frontline troops would get far too much supply. Without changing map design drastically I'd recommend setting allied RR destruction to 100% and setting their RR repair to zero, aswell as taking away any RR repair teams they got. Than all supply has to be carried by trucks as it was historically, and ports will now become of greater importance as they are the only way the allies can secure forward supply points.

Maybe the length of the supply distribution has to be looked over to assure that it's not too short.


---< edit >---

I would add the following Events: every port with an allied supply point has a radius trigger, as soon as allied units penetrate this radius and thereby threaten to capture the port, the germans begin to prepare the port facilities for destructions. Than the allies have XX turns left to capture the port in working condition (which will abort the destruction event) or it will be destroyed.
Would get rid of the luck based % chance of capturing the port and would put more realistic preassure on the allies to press their advance to capture the ports quickly.

---< 2nd edit >---

As to not give the germans an advantage in their supply and troop transport ability I recommend using the event that every turn turns some enemy controlled hexes into friendly controlled hexes, with an allied 100% allied RR destruction this should destroy every turn some RR hexes in german controlled territory, let this be a simulation for allied strategic bombing or partisan attacks.
Set the german rail repair to zero but give them some RR engineers, maybe 3 teams with a 50% repair chance each? This would give the germans a chance to at least try to keep the rail network operational, but I would decrease the german RR transport capacity periodically untill it reaches almost zero by the end of the scenario, as trains were shot up, tracks destroyed and bridges blown up.

 

[Telumar]

I think Kraut got it. Just want to add something: What about the redball express? Do you think it is already satisfactory modeled by the transport asset sharing routine or do we need additional truck units?